New Memebr Consider a Build...lots of questions.

[jklPDXPilot]

Hi,

I'm a new member of this community and am considering building either a Onex or Sonex B.

I earned my PPL this summer and have about 160 hoers of flight time, most of that in a Piper Warrior, though I started my training in a C-172.
I have moved onto to my tail wheel endorsement and am close to completing that in a Citabria. That has also included some spin training and basic aerobatics.

Of course, the first question is, "Which Sonex?"
My mission for this plane is really just to be able to fly cheap and often. I'm in a flying club and have access to some Pipers and Cessnas. The Club costs are too bad. At about 20 hours per year, the coast is about $180/hr all in (wet and includes insurance). That comes down a bit if I fly more. It also includes an annual flight review. But mostly, I'm in the club for the community and ongoing training that it requires. The point is, I don't need an XC plane, or really one that can carry someone else, though occasionally that would be nice to do in my own plane.

I like the idea of the Sonex B because it does allow for two people if I want to do that, and the performance hit isn't much compares to the Onex, I figure I could set it up with the universal seat option and a center and switch between one or two seats as the need arises. I also like the increased panel space. I know these aren't intended to be IFR planes, but I'll be working on that next summer and being able to practice in my own plane will save me money. Plus, I live in the PNW and the coast is often fogged in. Begin able to get in and out when the airports on the coast are IFR in otherwise good wx would be nice.

But the Onex wins on the cost front. The comparable kit price (add in in prebuilt spars and machined angles) represents about a 23k savings with the OneX. With the Quick Build option, that drops to about $17k, which is still considerable.

I wouldn't take much advantage of the foldable wings. My plan with either would be to store it outside at the airport in the summer ($420 for a tiedown per year), and then store it either in my shop or an enclosed trailer at home in the winter. if I convince my local airpark to let me park the trailer there in the winter, I'd just do that. I have to pay for the Tiedown spot either way. With the Sonex B, it's just a bit more work 2x per year.

I'd like go with the AeroVee turbo with either plane, though i like he idea of the Ul engines. Modern tech (elecronic ignition, fuel injection), but likely out of my budget unless I stretch out my build longer.

Appreciate thoughts on the above. I know in the end I'll have to figure out what I want. But it takes me forever to get to that point and others input usually helps my ask myself the "right" questions. If it matters, my timeline for a decision is about 6 months. That's about how ling it will be till I have the funds for this.

More specific questions are about transitional training and getting insurance.
I've read a lot here and elsewhere that it's hard to get insurance given the lack of training. For a new pilot with little tail wheel time, that's going to be even harder. I suppose I could start with a tri-gear and get time in the plane, then change it to tailwheel. That may make the ins co feel more comfortable. My tailwheel CFI owns an RV6 and I'm sure would give my training in that as well if I covered my share of the op costs.

I looked into the Sonex Foundation site, but it seems like it hasn't been updated in years.

So, what are new Sonex pilots doing to get insurance? Is it possible to get, but just expensive? Can you get just liability? I'd be willing to risk my investment for a bit while I build hours.

finally, and this may seem silly, but what is the view out the front like? it seems the line where the windshield and canopy meet is right at eye level?

Thanks a bunch!

James

[MichaelFarley56]

Hello James,

Welcome! You raise some excellent questions and I'm sure you'll receive many answers, so best of luck in your decisions! I'd be happy to offer my own two cents but please take them as my opinion only!

Given your criteria, it sounds like a Onex would be the way to go for you. If you want to fly as economically as possible and don't really care about carrying passengers on a regular basis, you won't get much cheaper than a Onex. As you're not based at a high elevation area, I would also recommend the non-turbo AeroVee as an engine option for a Onex. Cheaper purchase costs, less ongoing maintenance, and lower fuel burns would all make a non-turbo engine a potentially better option for you.

It is true that the Sonex wings are removable but it's not a job I'd want to do very often. If you're planning on moving the airplane on a regular basis, a Onex would be the easier option. Plus that may give you the option of sharing a hangar with another tenant so the airplane doesn't have to sit outside all summer.

The idea of IFR operations in anything Sonex has been discussed before, and most agree it's not a wise idea. The airplane wasn't designed with stability in mind and that, among other reasons (alternator output, limited fuel, etc.) makes the Sonex a lousy IFR platform. I would encourage you to use your club airplanes for that training and a Sonex/Onex for fun flying!

Insurance has been a problem in the Sonex community but it's not just the Sonex community that suffers with this issue. Presently, your best option would be to either find someone who is willing and able to offer you a little right seat time in a Sonex and count that as "time in type", even if the owner isn't a CFI. You can also make a case by flying in a similar airplane such as your friend's RV-6 and hope the underwriter buys off on that. I fear the reality today is that a lot of people are simply flying uninsured for the first 10 hours, and then applying for a policy once they have the required time.

Best of luck in your decision! No matter which airplane you decide, you will love it! They are a blast!

[Bryan Cotton]

For insurance - I was self-insured for a year. Then my insurance was reasonable. I have liability and hull for not-in-motion only. The 80hp Aerovee is the cost champion and is actually quite good single place and low altitude. We have flown ours 160 hours in our first 15 months.

Regarding IFR, I agree with Mike.

A center stick Sonex/Waiex would be my choice for the single place mission. Mainly because of room and the ability to take others. I've only sat in a couple of Onexes and I bet it's a blast.

With the lowered seat at my 5'7" height I could not see out the front. With a 1" hard foam booster under the cushion I can see a bit of horizon out the front. There is a thread on it.

Welcome to the forum!

Edit: just go tailwheel. It's a lot easier than a Citabria. The insurance company is requiring my kid to have 100 total and 50 tailwheel to be covered. Easy to get in the self insured phase.

[Bryan Cotton]

Thread on forward visibility:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7343

[karmarepair]

1. You will not be able to get insurance in a Onex in the current market, based on my experience trying to insure my Sonex. Fly naked for a year? If you have no assets, heirs or spouse, sure.
2. You CAN get transition training in a Sonex (and it would help if you go Onex...), either by flying in Jeff Schultz's plane in Missouri (plan on 2-3 full days of flying and at least $1000 in dual instruction), or buy a flying airplane that has finished Phase 1 testing in the Southwest and have Scott Todd or Casey Cooper train you in YOUR airplane in Arizona. There may be other options, but these I know can be done. Pete Fernell has a well sorted Sonex Tri-Gear with a 100 HP VW Type IV and 6 inch longer wings for sale in Kingman Arizona, less than $25K and you can be flying home by the end of the year. Casey I think has an airplane for sale too.
3. I'm not a fan of the Turbo, me. DM me for why if you're interested; I have NO personal experience with that engine, just suspicions.
4. IFR in this airframe is a bad idea.

[jklPDXPilot]

Great replies so far.

with regrds to flying withiut insurance, I would only do that to get enough hours in type (sounds like about 10 fro othere experience) to get insurance.

I would fly over farmland and acceot the hull risk, there is increased liability at the airport, bit I could lille minimize that as well. To be clear, not my preferred routw, just playing out options here.

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[kmacht]

To be honest, it sounds like you want to own a sonex, not build one. Building one is a multi year commitment that will have many low points that will want to make you give up. Unless you are building because you really enjoy the building process you will be dollars and hours ahead buying a used sonex.

[lakespookie]

So The answer to most of your questions basically falls under one category COST, Up front cost vs Long Term costs,

Based on your mission I agree with the LOT the Onex is probably your best bet to just fly around at low cost and buying a used aircraft would be the best bang for the buck, IF you want to customize it you could build it yourself but it will take twice as long as you think it will especially if you plan on installing things that are not in the plans, (Lighting, IFR Avionics, or Large Format Glass), I am building an IFR G3X panel with 2 Axis AP and throwing in a Navigator into my build and adding lighting, but i would not recommend flying any kind of actual IFR, the plane was designed to have neutral stability as such it will keep flying in the direction you point it, unlike most IFR planes that are designed with positive stability (i.e. they will tend to fly straight and level to a point). This is the main Drawback to attempting to fly a sonex in IFR and why sustained IFR is a bad idea, Not to mention the lack of weather proofing and limitations in the platform in regards to redundancy of systems and limited output of the charging system in standard engine configurations.

I am going to limit IFR Operations to get out of or under the typical morning layer we get here in So Cal but is not the main driver for my panel, I plan on doing extended cross countries which is why i want the AP and the Glass for ease of use but that also requires modifications to the panel to support the stack i want to build modifications to the wings for lighting installation, and i am also utilizing an non standard engine, (I am putting the Experimental in Experimental and do not recommend others follow my lead - That being said you should make your own assessment of risk based on your experience and technical background).

If you plan on taking any passengers and want an IFR Platform, any of the RV line is pretty close in cost to the B models at this point. as an example so far on my full kit i am up to about 50k including 7K in tools or so., This does not include powerplant or Avionics but all other kit components and shipping.

As a low cost VFR Airframe you cannot beat the Sonex line and in particular the Onex, Keep in mind with the aerovee there are some additional maintenance items like valve adjustment that needs to be done at every oil change etc. but operating cost are way lower,

The advantage to building is the repairman certificate and customization of the platform.

[jklPDXPilot]

To be honest, it sounds like you want to own a sonex, not build one. Building one is a multi year commitment that will have many low points that will want to make you give up. Unless you are building because you really enjoy the building process you will be dollars and hours ahead buying a used sonex.

I can see why you'd suggest I am more interested in owning than building as I'm projecting forward to ownership to make a decision on what to build. It is a large commitment in cost and time and I'd like to end up with something that meets my needs. But that doesn't mean I don't want or am not willing to build it.

That said, you are probably correct in
that my intention is to end up with a plane I fly. And if I didnt want to fly, I doubt I'd bothher to build a plane.

As far as just buying a used one, I,d be a bit concerned about buying a plane built and maintained by someone I don't know. I'd end up going through the whole thing anyway. That's probably less time than building but also more likely to miss things.

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[Scott Todd]

Building is a LONG term commitment. I think everyone should build a Sonex ;) But as a new pilot, you want to be flying. Buy one already flying. If you fall in love with it, then build one or buy a project to finish. The Onex may appear less expensive up front but in the end, it costs about the same. It could be 50K vs 60K for a B model. After years of building, the difference gets lost in the wash. And you don't have the option of taking a friend. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE my Onex, but its my 3rd Homebuilt and I have keys to a dozen other airplanes at our airport. It really fits the experienced pilot that has lots of flight time and knows exactly why they want a single place airplane.

A stroll of Barnstormers shows some nice choices. And the going rate is still about half of what it takes to build one. Buy a flying one and then decide if you want to build one. You can start the build while flying and eventually sell the bought one and recover nearly all of your investment. You will NEVER recover your investment if you build one and decide to sell it. Hence the half price benchmark....

I've owned a Sonex, a Onex, and test flown 4 others that were not mine.