Takeoff Distance

[pilotyoung]

I have been wondering about the take off distance. When I take off, I am usually 1,200 feet down the runway before I get airborne. I just checked the Sonex web site and it says the takeoff distance for the Onex is 500 feet.

I am wondering what kind of a take off distance you guys are getting? I normally takeoff with 1 notch of flaps.

I will appreciate your thoughts and experiences?

Thanks.

john

[XenosN42]

Hi John,

I'm getting about the same performance in my OneX. https://jasflyer.com/OneX/OneX%20N169XE%20Takeoff%20Performance.PDF

[pilotyoung]

Thank you for your response. It is very helpful.

I wanted to go to a fly-in breakfast this morning at a grass strip that is 2180 feet. With the high temperatures here in AL right now I was concerned about take off distance. But the forecast winds were a direct cross at 9 gusting to 15 and that is above my minimums for the Onex so I slept in. Then the gusty winds did not develop. But I made the prudent choice.

[WesRagle]

HI John,

With no flaps I usually break ground right at the 1000' (touchdown) mark. I can get off, into ground effect, a bit quicker with 1/2 flaps but it's still not ready to climb until 1000'.

If you want to try it, you can watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTcXTbKy-aY

The video shows a cockpit view of Drew taking off runway 27 at KOSH. You can see the runway markings as he makes his takeoff. If you then use the "measure distance" feature of Google Maps you can get an estimate of what it took a short wing Onex in very dense air to to make a rolling start takeoff. Maybe 800 to 900 ft. Looks like he uses the John Monnett method of leaving the tail down and waiting for the airplane to levitate.

Wes

[pilotyoung]

Wes,

I have watched that video many times when I first got my Onex to focus on the landings. I never thought of trying to get takeoff distance from it. You have more creativity than I do.

As to take off, I just let it fly off also. It seems to work well. Do you raise the tail for takeoff? If so, about what speed do you raise the tail and what speed do you rotate?

When I first watched that video I was surprised at his 1,000 fpm comment. But then I realized there is snow on the ground and so it must be very cold.

Thanks.

John

[WesRagle]

Hi John,

As to take off, I just let it fly off also. It seems to work well. Do you raise the tail for takeoff? If so, about what speed do you raise the tail and what speed do you rotate?

Lifting the tail and then rotating is the way I flew my Sonex. I enjoyed that and felt more in control of the airplane since the wheels were firmly planted and visibility was good right up until it was time to lower the tail and fly away. However, my instructor doesn't like that technique.

What he likes is for me to begin the takeoff with the stick full forward, wait for the tail to lift slightly, hold that attitude, and then wait for the airplane to levitate. So for me there is no rotate speed. He thinks this is the best technique for turf/soft field flying so why not just use it all the time. Would probably get off a little quicker using your technique.

I have no idea at what speeds everything happens. Too busy flying the plane :-)

Wes

[pilotyoung]

Thank you again for your quick reply. When I first got the Onex, I tried to lift the tail a couple of times during takeoff and I had difficulty with directional control, staying on the center line. So I quit that and just kept it on all three wheels, the stick about neutral and let it fly off. I have not had the benefit of an instructor for the Onex. My insurance company required two hours with a CFI in a tailwheel Sonex and I could not find that anywhere. So I went back to the insurance company with an offer of tow hours with a CFI in a Piper Cut, because I could get that at my airport. They accepted that offer. So after completing that. I talked to a couple of Onex guys and went up to Kentucky to pick up my new Onex and fly it home. My plan was to fly it on Friday evening locally and then fly it home on Saturday. I did about an hour flight Friday night, slow flight, steep turns, a couple of stalls, and then tried a landing. The first one was terrible and I gave it power and went. Fortunately I got enought speed to be flying before I came to the taxi light. So I went around and came back for the second try which was better, but not acceptble to me. I did get it on the ground, straight down the center line, but I called it quits for Friday night. I told the prior owner that I needed to stay over on Saturday and fly early Saturday morning and then late on Saturday afternoon and then I would leave for home on Sunday morning. So I did that, worked on stalls, slow flight, and landings on Saturday and I made enough progress that I felt I could fly it home safely on Sunday. So I did that and made one fuel stop on the way home, and I had to go around at the fuel stop. When I got to my home airport, I had to go around twice and landed on the third try. But it was home and I then talked to a couple more Onex drivers and watched videos on landing it. Then I spend about 30 hours doing nothing abut landings. I would fly to other airports close by and do lndings there. But all this was without instruction except talking to other Onex owners s to how they land it. While that practice has worked for me, I have not crashed it, I am still not totally confident that I am using the best procedure. So I m going to try your instructors procedure and see how I like it.

[WesRagle]

John,

So I m going to try your instructors procedure and see how I like it.

Seems to me that my instructors procedure is the most difficult but may have some advantage. The difficult part is holding the same nose high pitch attitude as the plane accelerates. To do that you have to smoothly and continuously relax the forward stick pressure while staying focused on directional control.

The thing that make it more difficult may be the very thing that makes it better. For one thing, you are actively flying the airplane as soon as possible rather than waiting until the plane is airborne. That pretty much eliminates the possibility of making pitch control errors during takeoff.

I think it probably has an advantage during cross wind takeoffs as well. I attended a light sport fly in a while back and at the departure the winds were 20 to 30 Kts. and crossed at about 25 deg. Takeoff was normal with stick full forward and into the wind. The plane was on rails during takeoff. Right down the runway, climbed to 50 ', and then let it weather vane. I made no special effort, it seemed to happen naturally. I was quite proud of that takeoff. Cruise on the way home was 160+ mph:-)

YMMV,

Wes

[pilotyoung]

Wes,

I don't understand your reply.

"The difficult part is holding the same nose high pitch attitude as the plane accelerates. To do that you have to smoothly and continuously relax the forward stick pressure while staying focused on directional control."

When I take off, I have the stick in a neutral position and so I am going down the runway in the same attitude the airplane sits in. It seems to me that if I start with the stick all the way forward, that the tail is going to come up and will not be in a nose high attitude. What am I missing?

Also did you get instruction in a Sonex from your instructor?

Thanks. I plan on flying early tomorrow morning and I want to try this approach.

John

[WesRagle]

Hi John,

What he likes is for me to begin the takeoff with the stick full forward, wait for the tail to lift slightly, hold that attitude, and then wait for the airplane to levitate.

My instructors method has me lift the tail just a little, like an inch or two, and hold it there throughout the takeoff roll. That takes practice and a little finesse or you will run down the runway bouncing the tail up and down off the runway. Using this method you have pitch under full control when you levitate. You will in effect be flying the airplane before liftoff.

As you said:

I have the stick in a neutral position and so I am going down the runway in the same attitude the airplane sits.

Using that method, just leaving the stick in the neutral position, you don't have to control pitch until the airplane lifts off. It may takeoff nose up or nose down depending on loading and trim setting. New pilots could be caught off guard.

Clear as mud?

Wes