Scratchbuilder questions from new member

[Barry63]

Hello to all,

I've been reading numerous posts( great information) on this site for a few months and decided to join as I have always wanted to build an airplane and really like the Sonex line-up. I have been thru the Sonex website a LOT. The kits are just out of my price range at this point in my life so I'm thinking scratchbuild.

I may have the opportunity soon to purchase plans, some aluminum, rib forms and not sure what else from the widow of a gentleman who purchased plans for Sonex S/N 1303 a few years back. Learned of this thru another pilot/friend who knew the gentleman. I have yet to see what all is there.

1. For you scratchbuilders out there, do the plans provide a list of materials? If so, how complete is it?

2. I really like what I have seen in the B model version but that is out of my price range. From what I have read on the Sonex website, there are NO B model mods that will be incorporated into the legacy models, correct? I really like the idea of a wider fuselage but realize that changes the canopy dimensions also.

3. Tailwheel or Tricycle? I would prefer the tailwheel instead of nosegear just because I think it looks better with a tailwheel. I currently own and fly my restored 1956 172 that I have over 600 hours in with about 25 hrs of Cub time which was a good while ago. Obviously, I would get current again in t/wheels before flying a Sonex. Comments? Pros/cons for you guys out there with similar flying experience? I have over 1300 hrs total time with a few hundred of Robbie helicopter time. How much worse is insurance for t/wheel vs tricycle? Plus, I would be in my early to mid-60's till I would finish this project, so reflexes may have dulled a bit?

4. Scratchbuilt I assume would be cheaper than the kit price? I have a decently equipped shop, 26 years as an A&P and lots of time to make parts. I hope to retire in about 6 years or so and this would be a nice retirement gift to myself.

Thanks!

[peter anson]

Answering some of your questions:
1. Yes and pretty good
2. For scratch building, A model Sonex only
3. Tail wheel is a bit simpler to build. Also slightly lighter and faster.
4. Cheaper than kit price? - it depends. I built my Sonex much cheaper than kit price but I'm in Australia so freight is a killer here. However some parts and materials are best sourced from Sonex. I could have bought the entire extruded materials bundle cheaper from Sonex than what I paid in Australia for just the longerons. Folding the control surfaces is tricky. It's best to buy the folded sections. Scratch building does give you the opportunity to spread the money out over several years. I think the best way to go is to buy a kit that someone else has started but you do have to be confident that any work they have completed is OK.

Peter

[OneTallShort]

1. For you scratchbuilders out there, do the plans provide a list of materials? If so, how complete is it?

The plans ARE the list of materials. Each page has a list of what is required. If you are referring to hardware, then you can get packages from either Wicks or Aircraft spruce. Fairly complete until you hit firewall forward...then it's pretty much custom to fit your install option...

2. I really like what I have seen in the B model version but that is out of my price range. From what I have read on the Sonex website, there are NO B model mods that will be incorporated into the legacy models, correct? I really like the idea of a wider fuselage but realize that changes the canopy dimensions also.

Sonex has provided a B model conversion kit, so that may be an option if you can snag a A model kit.

3. Tailwheel or Tricycle

Tailwheel... with factory disc brakes and the direct steering tailwheel.

4. Scratchbuilt I assume would be cheaper than the kit price?

So I'm "scratch building with-in reason" Sonex (a) 715. That means I bought the pre-formed metal kit, factory (used) engine mount, the center W spar member (as a pattern), and some other factory parts over time. (some more complex skins that I doubled). Bonus is that I've built it over quite a time, and with available cash... but it's not flying yet...close..

With today's market, you can probably buy a complete one cheaper than it would cost you to build it... or buy a partially completed kit...but that might not be as much fun...are you a builder or flyer?

Most of the structure is open or visible (especially with a cheap borescope). With an A&P, I'd think you could pretty quickly evaluate a partially completed kit (mostly A model available out there), and get something part done, and move forward (or a bit back) from there.

When I started, sub kits weren't available. Being more of a builder, I'd probably have bought the sub kits for the B model if I was starting today...but I'd probably NOT start with the tail... I'd find a used tail kit and start with something else (wings or fuse) from Sonex...

So the short answer is that you can scratch build a Sonex (A) with a pretty compete kit, and great factory support...and pretty much buy what you don't want to fabricate. Or if you just want to go fly one...there are planes out there looking for pilots... and with experimental, you can mod it from there...

Gregg Short
Burbank, OH
Sonex N715SX Turbo AeroVee
Just need a cowl, canopy, and windshield installed, and rigging to go flying!

[Arjay]

Barry:
Can’t say anything about building, but can answer somewhat about wheel configuration and brakes.
I have over 500 hours total time, mostly in various taildraggers, but also some in trycicle, am over 80, and have been flying my purchased legacy Sonex with Aerovee for over six years.

Here is my advice, fwiw.

Go with tailwheel and independent brakes (controllable each wheel). Be sure your fuel cap is the screw-on type, or get Peter Anson’s adjustable plug type.

If you want to fly acro you will need special consideration of your entire fuel delivery and vent system.

Incorporate cooling air for your fuel delivery system forward of the firewall.

Hope this helps.

Ron

[Barry63]

Thanks for all the input guys.

Gregg, I like to fly but I also enjoy building. Looking for something to keep me busy in the wintertime and with our daughter in college now, have some more free time. I 've seen that you can purchase just about anything from Sonex to ease the scratchbuilding process so I would possibly go that route( the folded skins for sure) if I end up buying plans and a partial build.

Ron, appreciate the flying input. Looks like tailwheel is the way to go.

[sonex1566]

Hi Barry,
I scratch built mine over a 6 year period. I might have saved money, but for me the main reason was lack of up front $$ and I really liked the challenge of it. I did all my own folding and welding etc, again due to lack of funds and well just to 'have a go'. The freight costs to Australia are eye watering. I believe the main reason should be because you enjoy building and making stuff. If your only motivation is to save a buck, you may not ever finish. For everyone who has completed one, that contented satisfied feeling is pretty hard to beat. Good luck.

[Rofomoto]

Scratch built mine. 2 1/2 years. Bought canopy, tail fiberglass and control surface skins. Would do it again. First flight in about an hour. Very nervous.

[SonexN76ET]

Good Luck On Your First Flight Billy! I have enjoyed watching your build on sonexbuilders.net. I look forward to your first flight report!

Jake

[mike.smith]

The kits are just out of my price range at this point in my life so I'm thinking scratchbuild.

I may have the opportunity soon to purchase plans, some aluminum, rib forms and not sure what else from the widow of a gentleman who purchased plans for Sonex S/N 1303 a few years back. Learned of this thru another pilot/friend who knew the gentleman. I have yet to see what all is there.

That was my story. I bought the plans and about a dozen already-made small parts from another builder, and went from there. I took 5 yrs 3 months, 2,360 hours, including building the AeroVee engine. Spreading out the cost is what allowed me to build my Sonex. I built everything except the welded parts (welding was an "art" that I was not going to figure out in a reasonable amount of time), fiberglass and canopy. I loved building everything, even the wing spars. If I had it to do again, and had the money to do whatever I wanted, I still would not buy any of the pre-assembled parts. It's just the extra intense sense of accomplishment that I wouldn't want to miss.

1. For you scratchbuilders out there, do the plans provide a list of materials? If so, how complete is it?

There is a 6-page "Material Planning Guide" that gives you an aluminum materials list and how many of each you need. It also has plans with suggested layouts for all the parts cut from aluminum sheets. As others have mentioned, AC Spruce and Wicks sell hardware kits for the Sonex, and you can do it by major section like tail, fuselage, etc.

2. I really like what I have seen in the B model version but that is out of my price range. From what I have read on the Sonex website, there are NO B model mods that will be incorporated into the legacy models, correct? I really like the idea of a wider fuselage but realize that changes the canopy dimensions also.

Correct. Only the legacy, straight tail Sonex is available to scratch build. Sonex has said they have no plans to change that.

3. Tailwheel or Tricycle? I would prefer the tailwheel instead of nosegear just because I think it looks better with a tailwheel. I currently own and fly my restored 1956 172 that I have over 600 hours in with about 25 hrs of Cub time which was a good while ago. Obviously, I would get current again in t/wheels before flying a Sonex. Comments? Pros/cons for you guys out there with similar flying experience? I have over 1300 hrs total time with a few hundred of Robbie helicopter time. How much worse is insurance for t/wheel vs tricycle? Plus, I would be in my early to mid-60's till I would finish this project, so reflexes may have dulled a bit?

I have been flying my tail dragger for 6 years, and I love it, though there are days I won't fly if I don't like the cross winds; days that I would fly if I had the nose dragger. I had no tail wheel experience before building my Sonex. I have had the pleasure of doing flight testing on a tricycle gear Sonex over this last year, so I can offer these comparisons (personal preference only; others are bound to have different opinions).

Tricycle Gear:
- More tame in cross winds. Once the nose gear is on the ground, it's pretty much going to stay there. I will fly much more comfortably in cross winds in the tricycle Sonex than my tail wheel Sonex. Same goes for taxiing.
- With the short coupling between the mains and the nose gear, landings can be accidentally firm at times. If you don't get the landing angle just right, at just the right airspeed, when the mains touch the nose wheel can come down pretty quickly. I've taken to learning when to goose the power just before touchdown, but if I get the timing wrong, I float, instead.
- Because of the point above, landings feel to me, like I'm landing a tail wheel airplane in a 3-point landing. So I can't see anything out the front windscreen, and have to land looking at the edge of the runway out the left side of the canopy. I land my tail wheel Sonex on the wheels 95% of the time, which is a flatter landing with better visibility. I can do that because as soon as the mains touch, the nose doesn't try to pitch down.
- Less suitable for grass or rough runways since the prop is awfully close to the ground.
- The nose wheel steering is the real downside to the nose dragger. It has a spring to dampen the control link, and it is NOT nearly as easily steered as a typical nose wheel airplane. At slow taxi speeds if you stand on the rudder pedals it will barely even turn. You have to "stab" the pedals to get it to behave and make a turn, which it does well if you do it that way. At fast taxi and take-off speeds, the steering works great, EXCEPT...
- If you don't have the front wheel lined up straight down the runway when you put in the power, and it starts to veer to one side of the runway, it may not turn back to the center! I have almost been in the weeds a couple of times. It's that low speed control issue. Best to chop the power, straighten it out, and do it again.

Tail Wheel:
- Ya' gotta' love the "cool" factor!
- Slightly lighter and faster due to less drag.
- Extremely agile taxiing.
- Like a WWII fighter, you can't see over the nose, so you have to S-turn to see ahead of you when taxiing.
- Can hold an extra gallon of fuel due to the deck angle during fueling.
- Wheel landings give better visibility. I find they are also easier to get right more often, than a 3 point landing. This is because my lift off speed is 36 kts, so in a 3-point it's really easy to get airborne again. This is probably a personal preference, but I only 3 point on rougher grass strips. Otherwise, never.
- More tricky in cross winds. The rear wheel (I have the 6" Van's wheel; do youself a favor and do NOT use the 4" wheel specified!) has very little surface area on the runway, so just like a castoring tail wheel, you have to keep the nose straight down the runway or you're at risk of heading for the weeds. Stay on the rudder pedals.
- That said, the tail wheel Sonex is more tame than a typical tail dragger. Just don't get complacent.
- When you're outside the airplane, it's very easy to maneuver. Just pick up the tail and spin it around to point it wherever you want. Works great at the gas pump with 3 other aircraft around the pumps. My plane weighs 53 lbs at the tail, so very easy to pick up. To put it in a parking space or a hangar, just pick up the tail by the tailwheel bracket, point it where you want it, then pull it into place.

Both are great configurations and I would recommend either. It's down to which one fits the mission, and feels most comfortable to you.

4. Scratchbuilt I assume would be cheaper than the kit price? I have a decently equipped shop, 26 years as an A&P and lots of time to make parts. I hope to retire in about 6 years or so and this would be a nice retirement gift to myself.

Well, maybe. It certainly lets you spread out the cost. You still buy plenty of stuff from Sonex. Mine cost me $28K all-in (I polished instead of painted to keep 25 lbs of paint off the airframe, and to save $$). Keith Macht was a world class scrounger and built his for around $16K without paint. It's really easy to drive up the cost by just adding a little of this and a little of that.

Lots of us have information about materials, tools, construction notes, etc. Just ask, and you're bound to get a lot more information beyond the factory plans and lists.

[Barry63]

Mike,

Thanks so much for the in depth perspective. Exactly the kind of info I was looking for. I hope to check out what all is there this weekend and will make a decision as to purchase or not.

As for the cost, yes it could add up quickly especially with avionics. I visited Michael Jackson a few weeks ago and checked out his Onex. Nice plane and I loved the avionics he had in it, but doubt I could afford that. Would probably go with steam gauges as thats what I've been flyin with the past 20 years. I also have been accumulating a lot of parts, wiring, hardware, etc. over the years from wrenching at different companies and always accepted anything I thought i could ues down the road so hope that would help to keep the cost down.

Billy, I've been following your progress in pictures with much interest as I may be scratchbuilding in the future also. Good luck with your first flight!