Bart frm Greeneville South Carolina

[BartMan02]

Hi,
I'm new to the forum and registered today and wanted take a quick moment and introduce myself as I will be asking many questions over the next several weeks.

First I want to say I'm glad to see so many people using this forum and I'm sure I will be able to get my questions answered here.

Just a little about myself. I'm in the process of completing my private pilots license and fly at the Downtown Greeneville Airport in SC. Next week I have the entire week off of work and have scheduled 10 lessons and plan to have my first solo in a Piper Archer.

I really don't want to rent aircraft and want to own my own. The reason I'm looking at a Sonex or Waiex with an Aerovee engine is because of my experience with racing VW engines. I have built so many of them, I could probably build one blindfolded. These are great running lightweight engines when you understand how to keep them fine tuned.

I guess the first question I have, is this a good aircraft for me to fly as a low time pilot. I will be building my flight time in a rental until I complete any build project, but no matter how long it takes me to complete a project I will still be a low time pilot.

Any incites would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks for reading.

Bart

[fastj22]

Do you really want to build or just fly? You can get a pretty good Aerovee Sonex for a good price and just start maintaining the engine from the get go. Maybe even one that needs a rebuild, which sounds like you are qualified to tackle. And you'll get one for less than you can build one, unless you are real good at scavenging parts.

[BartMan02]

Do you really want to build or just fly? You can get a pretty good Aerovee Sonex for a good price and just start maintaining the engine from the get go. Maybe even one that needs a rebuild, which sounds like you are qualified to tackle. And you'll get one for less than you can build one, unless you are real good at scavenging parts.

Thanks for your reply fastj22

I have thought about it and to tell you the truth, I have not really made up my mind. That said my first choice is to build my own, one that I can truly call my own.

Money is definitely a consideration but my satisfaction will be priceless. You stated that I could buy a Sonex for much less then it cost to build one. Are you saying that the cost to build one is much more then advertised. I have been watching Barnstormers, and it seems that the only true deals come from the partially built kits that are available which I have considered.

That very question is one of the reasons why I joined this group.

Again thanks for your reply and have a great day, "Hopefully Flying"

Bart

[fastj22]

Do you really want to build or just fly? You can get a pretty good Aerovee Sonex for a good price and just start maintaining the engine from the get go. Maybe even one that needs a rebuild, which sounds like you are qualified to tackle. And you'll get one for less than you can build one, unless you are real good at scavenging parts.

Thanks for your reply fastj22

I have thought about it and to tell you the truth, I have not really made up my mind. That said my first choice is to build my own, one that I can truly call my own.

Money is definitely a consideration but my satisfaction will be priceless. You stated that I could buy a Sonex for much less then it cost to build one. Are you saying that the cost to build one is much more then advertised. I have been watching Barnstormers, and it seems that the only true deals come from the partially built kits that are available which I have considered.

That very question is one of the reasons why I joined this group.

Again thanks for your reply and have a great day, "Hopefully Flying"

Bart

I think the estimates from sonex are pretty optimistic. If you already have all the tooling, don't screw up any parts, keep it very simple with basic instrumentation, yeah, you could probably get close. But you will dream and the sirens of Oshkosh will make you spend thousands on upgrades. Those sonex on barnstormers have gone through all that. And I'm not even considering your time, marital stress, burnout, Loss of garage space, and frustration. Not saying building wasn't great, but it needs to be your primary passion, not flying. To do again myself, I would have bought a bought one to fly and started building a second.

[rizzz]

Building one comes with a lot of challenges, stress, blood sweat and tears, swearing etc. but also with a great sense of achievement and satisfaction every time you complete a major or minor part of your airplane, not to mention completing your aircraft and flying it!
I'm now 3 quarters of the way through my project, having completed the tail, fuselage right wing and most of the left wing parts; and I would certainly build again, in fact I probably will fly mine for a few years, sell it and then build another aircraft (a SeaRey this time).

Building an airplane is fun but it is not for everyone though, the fact is that the majority of people starting to build never complete their project. Either they lose interest, just stop liking it, lose family support, money issues, you name it, and an uncompleted project is typically not even worth half the money you put into it if you want to sell it on Barnstormers or so.

Make sure it is truly what you want to do and you have your wife's/partner's/family's full support as you will be spending a lot of time in your workshop for the years to come, they can say now that they support you but trust me, a few years down the track that part-airplane in your garage will become a recurring topic of discussion.

You can often buy a Sonex/AeroVee on Barnstormers for 25K-30K, building one from a kit will cost you at least that, and depending on instruments and other gadgets you decide to install you can go a lot higher than that. The Sonex estimates on the website are quite optimistic and assume only the very basic instrumentation etc.
If you scratch build you can probably build a lot cheaper (I’ve heard scratch builders mention figures as low as $15,000 but that means make every aluminium/steel part from scratch, converting your own VW engine, …)
You can do a combination of both as well, which is what I’m doing, make most parts but buy the parts you can’t or don’t have the tools to make.

That said, there are still financial benefits of building nevertheless:
If you choose to build you can spread the cost over a long period of time, you can buy individual sub-kits when you need them and hold off on buying instruments and engine until the very end when you need them.
If you scratch build you can spread the cost even more, just read Eric Witherspoon’s low $$$ build strategy: http://www.spoonworld.com/flying/sonex/ ... ld2_10.htm
Also, when you’ve built more than 51% of your aircraft yourself % (kit or scratch, does not matter) you will be able to do maintenance on your aircraft yourself, which is a huge cost-saver down the track.
If you buy a completed Sonex that is not the case, no matter how much you know about VW engines, you won’t be allowed to touch it.

There is a lot to consider and I certainly do not regret choosing to build but as I said, most people starting to build never complete their project which ultimately means there are a lot of people out there regretting their decision.
Make sure you think it through.

[fastj22]

Michael,
I don't know about Australia, but in the US anyone can work on an Experimental- amature built aircraft. You just can't sign off the annual inspection unless you are an A&P or have the repairmans certificate for that aircraft.
So if you bought a flying sonex here, you would need to pay someone to do that inspection.

[BartMan02]

Building one comes with a lot of challenges, stress, blood sweat and tears, swearing etc. but also with a great sense of achievement and satisfaction every time you complete a major or minor part of your airplane, not to mention completing your aircraft and flying it!

Hi Michael,
Thanks for your input. All great advice. I am in the best position I have ever been in to be able to build my own aircraft. Time, money and space are no longer problems. I come from an auto racing background and raced midgets and sprint cars for over 20 years so I'm use to the stress that comes from being away from family and making the wrong decision when it comes to fabrication. I have built many sprint and midget chassis especially back in the late 80's when we use to run Volkswagen engines in the midgets, which is why I like the idea of building the VW Aero Conversion engine.

You can often buy a Sonex/AeroVee on Barnstormers for 25K-30K, building one from a kit will cost you at least that, and depending on instruments and other gadgets you decide to install you can go a lot higher than that. The Sonex estimates on the website are quite optimistic and assume only the very basic instrumentation etc.

I have been watching barnstormers every week and it seems to me that the only true deals come from partially built kits. I would like to buy one of these kits and try to save as much money as I could but the problem I have with that is can I be sure that the workmanship is up to standards and has it been built to the proper tolerances. I would hate to buy something and get it home and find out I have to rebuild something because it has not been done properly.

Also, when you’ve built more than 51% of your aircraft yourself % (kit or scratch, does not matter) you will be able to do maintenance on your aircraft yourself, which is a huge cost-saver down the track.
If you buy a completed Sonex that is not the case, no matter how much you know about VW engines, you won’t be allowed to touch it.

I have thought about buying a flying Sonex, but if you are correct and I wont be able to work on it then that will be a deal breaker for me. I'm not interested in buying an aircraft and have someone else do all the work. If I can do all the work on an existing Sonex I would look for one that either needs finishing or one that has not been painted or one that needs an engine refurbished, or all of the above. But at least something that I can put my own work to it.

There is a lot to consider Michael, but that is why I'm here on this forum. I'm just glad to see so many people are here to help.

Make it a great day and have fun Flying

Bart

[fastj22]

I wouldn't worry too much about build quality of a partial kit. Any craftsmanship issues can easily be identified when you look at it and walk away if they aren't up to your standards. A Sonex is almost idiot proof to assemble properly. But there are those who can't put tab A in slot B or shouldn't. You just need to know what to look for. Deburred holes and edges, mis-drills, improper torques on bolts. Those are easy to check. And you seem skilled enough to do it yourself.
I bought a partial kit and saved a few thousand dollars and about 300 hours of labor.

I responded to Michael above about the ability for the owner to work on a E-A/B plane they didn't build. You can, at least in the US. And you can do anything you want to it except the annual inspection. So that shouldn't be a deal breaker for you. My hangar mate just finished his annual, he and I did all the work and paid an A&P to review and sign it off.

[BartMan02]

Thanks John,

I responded to Michael above about the ability for the owner to work on a E-A/B plane they didn't build. You can, at least in the US. And you can do anything you want to it except the annual inspection.

I thought I could work on an existing experimental but I wasn't really sure. For me money is always an issue and I had thought about scratch building for a bit, but the extra tools I'm sure I need to purchase probably wont save me to much money and the extra time involved is becoming less appealing to me.

The kit looks fairly easy to build and I really don't think I would have any problems building one. If what you are saying is correct about being able to see right away if fabrication on a partially built kit has been properly done, then that is definitely something I would look for.

There looks to be a good deal now on Barnstormers under kit planes for a Sonex tail dragger. https://www.barnstormers.com/cat.php?mode=listing&main= The pictures look OK. They are asking 13,900 which seems like a bargain price compared to the 25 thou price tag on a quick build kit.

I'm really not ready to purchase yet and not sure which way to go. Should I look for a tail or tri gear plane since I would be a low time pilot and would also have to get my tail dragger endorsement. I'm also very excited about a turbo VW. I think I read something somewhere a while back that the turbo would only be available on a tail wheel Sonex.

So what ever I do I want to make sure I do the right thing and not just jump at something because of the price. Besides, I'm sure there will be other deals that come along down the road.

So, first things first. I first need to finish and get my pilots license. I'm extremely excited because I'm not working all next week and have scheduled 10 lessons. I hope the weather holds out because I will be soloing sometime next week and I'm anxious to start my solo flights.

One last thought or question. Do you think a Sonex or Waiex would be a good plane for me to fly as a low time Pilot.

Thanks for al your help.

Bart

[fastj22]

A wise homebuilder told me as I just got my license and headed to Airventure with him in his RV7, buy a cheap C150 and fly it for 100 hours. Then sell it for what you paid. It will make you a better pilot, and make damn sure you like to fly in relatively slow and primitive airplanes. I did just that. I then traded my C150 for my Waiex kit.