max demo'ed crosswind component for sonex A TD

[n502pd]

I put this question here under training as it seems appropriate. A fellow Sonex A TD owner and pilot, and I, are interested in finding what the Sonex world uses for the maximun demonstrated crosswind component for tail wheel landings, on grass and hard surface, and maybe also include what the takeoff max crosswind component is agreeable to most. I do understand that techniques are needed to land in a crosswind. What I would like to gather is what folks are using as go--no go limits. At the moment I am at 23 hrs TW time, and dont consider myself anywhere near competant for anything above 5 or 6 mph component on grass. What say you all, for grass and hard surface? thanks in advance!

[fastj22]

Max demonstrated for my Waiex was a 20 knot direct crosswind (hard surface). Came in fast, wing down into the wind in a side slip, then three pointed it and full rudder to keep it straight. The tail wheel chattered as it tried to hold grip. Once I got slowed down, it was tame. I wouldn't like any more cross wind.

My old tailwheel instructor told me that if on final and you don't have enough rudder to side slip it in, then you are over the limit, do something else.

[Fastcapy]

I have done 18 direct x-wind with my Sonex and I feel that was right about the limit of what it could handle. That was on pavement, I had about 75hrs in my Sonex at that point. Don't really care to do it again, but know it can handle it.

[MichaelFarley56]

Max demonstrated for my Waiex was a 20 knot direct crosswind

Would you please teach me your ways, O wise one?? Seriously, I would LOVE to have that capability in my Waiex!! In general, I consider my limit at around 8 knots total crosswind or else I'm simply out of rudder, regardless of which direction the wind is coming from.

John, when you land in crosswinds that strong, what flap settings do you use? What hints can you offer for those landings? I'll be honest; when I'm on approach at 60-70 mph, I have plenty of rudder authority but as I set up for a 3 point attitude in the flare and speed bleeds off to 40 mph before touchdown, I loose a lot of that rudder authority (I don't think there's enough air going over the rudder at that point).

Having flown the straight tail Sonex, I do know know that model does better in crosswinds, and tri gear examples do even better.

Joe, approach crosswind capability slowly and carefully but when you're landing on pavement, your airplane shouldn't have an issue with 10-14 knots of crosswind and you'll get maybe a little more on the grass.

Be safe!!

[n502pd]

Thanks guys for the ecouragements! I am going slowly with phase one, issue by issue (there isnt that many, thankfully), and should be flying again after the wet season leaves and runway dries. My concern was the aircraft reactivity to crosswinds on the never tried yet hard surface landings for a really new TD driver. I will continue to be a live chicken with all my feathers in place!!

[tx_swordguy]

Hey Joe,
Sorry Finney has had so much rain this winter. Not that I am by any means an expert as you know (I am only approaching 60 hrs on my sonex since April '17). My x wind landings have maxed out to about 10 direct maybe gusting a bit above that. What works for me is wheel landings 1st notch of flaps and coming in a little faster maybe 80 until flare. Just keep it straight and once both mains are on the ground, push the stick into the wind (just steadily move it don't jam it over) . As you slow down drop the TW and give full aft stick but keep it into the wind until you leave the active. on the ground Once you leave the active as you know stick goes back and into the wind if it is a head wind, but forward and away from the wind if it is tail wind as you move from point a to point b on the ground. What I have noticed in x winds as I slow down on the active if I don't pull full aft stick it can still try to weather vein and the TW will skid on the pavement. When you get ready for pavement Gville is smooth and plenty long. As a side note I have seen it recommended that the sonex be wheel landed on pavement and 3pt on grass regardless of x wind or not. I cannot say that is right or wrong as my experience in the sonex is all but 3 landings on pavement. It did seem much easier to 3pt on grass though.
Mark

[LarryEWaiex121]

Joe,

Larry here in Idaho. Waiex TD with 670 hrs in the last 7 years. Camit 3300 engine with a Jabiru 3300 prior.
Interesting you should bring this up. About 5 yrs ago, I had quite the spirited debate with Jeremy Monnett when he responded to my comment about the crosswind limitations on the Waiex compared to the conventional tail Sonex. He obviously thought my assessment was incorrect. We agreed to disagree. It was all good spirited.
Without going too deep, my contention was then and still is, that the conventional tail plane will handle a bit more crosswind than the Waiex. Believed it then, still believe that to be the case today. Taking off with a Waiex, with a 3300 taildragger and a stiff wind off the port side can turn into an interesting experience.
My comfort limit for crosswind sustained is 8kts on the left (90 degree) and 12 kts on the right(90 degree). I landed one time in Northern California on my way back from the Rio Linda Fly-in and the Sisku AWOS was calling 19kts gusting to 26 kts about 60 degrees off the runway heading at Montague just a few miles away. Wind was on the right side and I came down final with no flaps and 70 mph with the left rudder on the firewall. Right wing down about 5-8 degrees. At about 25 mph groundspeed on the roll out, I took a scenic off the right side of the runway. No amount of finesse was going to keep that plane on the runway. I stopped less than 15 feet off the edge. With care, I taxied back to the FBO, using all available controls to keep things put.
I encourage folks to remember that these are very light airframes and just don't have the same capabilities of bigger and heavier aircraft. Flight planning, good decision making, all add up to safer flights and less bent up parts.

[mike.smith]

14 kts is MY max demonstrated crosswind, and I usually won't chose to go flying if it's there. I do this for fun and not for adrenaline. And if you are not on your A-game with the rudder pedals, watch out. That little tail wheel will skid like an S.O.B. with so little surface area. As with anything in flying, you can get away with lots of things if you are lucky or just really good that day. But can you count on either, every day? If I have to ask myself, "do you feel lucky, punk," then I stay home. :-)

[lpaaruule]

Back when I when I had less than 10 hrs on the Sonex, I had a really bad landing in a crosswind (probably 10 or so kts) that caused my right wheelpant to shake, and catch on the wheel. So my right wheel "grabbed" the wheelpant, and locked up. This caused the plane to almost go over on it's nose, but fortunately I had enough speed and was able to yank the stick back, and luckily the got the wheelpant came loose. After slowly exiting the runway, and taking a moment to calm down, I slowly started to taxi toward the fuel pumps. At about walking speed I did a groundloop, and thought the wind had blown me. I didn't actually realize that my wheelpant was hanging by a thread until talking to a guy at the pumps; he actually saw it first. It was the wheelplant that caused me to groundloop.

I still at over 50 hrs haven't bothered putting wheelpants back on yet. And no, I haven't had any landing that even nearly that bad since.

Having said all that, I set my crosswind limit to 8 kts after the botched landing. Sure enough, one day it was exactly an 8 kt crosswind. I probably had about 15 hours on the plane by then. I flew around for a while doing stalls or whatever, and then tuned to AWOS as I headed back to land. To my surprise, the crosswind was now 14 kts, and gusty. I thought to myself, well this is it, and determined that I was going to keep the upwind wing down.

It wasn't the prettiest landing, but my crosswind skill came back to me that day, and happily taxied to the fuel pumps while hearing a Diamond DA-20 go around.

My limit is now 14 kts. I don't come in any faster than normal unless it's gusty. I just put in a side slip, and keep flying the plane down the centerline until the tailwheel touches, then I pin it full back stick. If it's gusty, I'll apply some light brake and retract the flaps, to quickly remove as much lift as I can.

[n502pd]

I have gotten loads of insite from all the responses, and I say thanks much!! I agree with no wheel pants early on in flight testing, and I removed mine at hr 1.o. I am doing only wheel landings right now as I and Sirpeedee get to know each other a bit better! Since the wx has not cooperating at all since before Christmas, I will probably have to get comfortable landing again before I consider both hard surface and crosswinds again. I agreee with the idea of having low limits on crosswinds, and not going flying if I am not comfortable. I do take razzing from the more experienced TW flyers, but like I said, I perfurr being a live chicken! It sort of looks like the consesus seems to be max xwind component is somewhere between 8 and, maybe 12 mph. some have had experiences higher than that, but the comment that the sonex is a very light aircraft and can be blown around easilly is probably the most important thing for us to remember, as I have already learned. All the comments are greatly appreciated, and has convinced me I am on the correct path! Thanks everyone!!