Engine Reliability?

[EdW]

OK, with all the AeroInjector carb bashing aside (this is, after all, NOT an engine problem, per se) after reading comments and doing a bit of research, it looks to me that we have, in the VW engine, a reasonable robust basic engine. Catastrophic failures can happen to any engine, and they have, but to a small sample. I saw one report regarding a Force One hub, and one report about an alternator (magnet?) coming loose, as well as a couple of complaints about the ignition system. Of course, there are the nicrosil (sp?) cylinders, but that problem has supposedly been remedied.

Over all, these complaints are minor in both scope and occurrence. The majority of problems are well known, and fixes available. Due-diligence and an analytical approach. The engine itself seems to be a stout little pony, with us, the builders and maintainers wringing our hands because some curable accessory problem raised its' ugly head.

Yes, these glitches are nerve-wracking. Yes, they sometimes teach us new words. And yes, unfortunately, sometimes we get hurt. But remember, the word "EXPERIMENTAL" is written on our airplanes for a reason.

After reading what I could find regarding the VW engine I am convinced we have a nice little (relatively) inexpensive powerplant that has minor vices that for the most part are fixable.I guess I'll stick to my decision to fly behind a 'bug' motor.


Ed


We live and learn.
then die and forget it all.

[Spinnetti]

OK, with all the AeroInjector carb bashing aside (this is, after all, NOT an engine problem, per se) after reading comments and doing a bit of research, it looks to me that we have, in the VW engine, a reasonable robust basic engine. Catastrophic failures can happen to any engine, and they have, but to a small sample. I saw one report regarding a Force One hub, and one report about an alternator (magnet?) coming loose, as well as a couple of complaints about the ignition system. Of course, there are the nicrosil (sp?) cylinders, but that problem has supposedly been remedied.

Over all, these complaints are minor in both scope and occurrence. The majority of problems are well known, and fixes available. Due-diligence and an analytical approach. The engine itself seems to be a stout little pony, with us, the builders and maintainers wringing our hands because some curable accessory problem raised its' ugly head.

Yes, these glitches are nerve-wracking. Yes, they sometimes teach us new words. And yes, unfortunately, sometimes we get hurt. But remember, the word "EXPERIMENTAL" is written on our airplanes for a reason.

After reading what I could find regarding the VW engine I am convinced we have a nice little (relatively) inexpensive powerplant that has minor vices that for the most part are fixable.I guess I'll stick to my decision to fly behind a 'bug' motor.


Ed

That was a good response. Hopefully true as I was starting to second guess if I should build a Sonex or not. I drive behind a bug motor today, and wish this was the engine I was using! (2.0 water cooled direct injected Turbo, 280hp/325tq)....

We live and learn.
then die and forget it all.

[daleandee]

I’m not trying to say shut up and hide known problems....

Well to be brutally honest that was the exact takeaway I got from your statement ... and it appears some others did also. It seems at best a sincere desire to keep Sonex in a good light and at its worse an attempt to hide defects from potential customers. I don't want to believe you meant any harm but to be honest ... those type of statements can cause a lot of damage to future readers of this forum.

Aren't you affiliated with the foundation that should have as its first priority the safety of those that choose this aircraft? I believe at one time you were. When an earlier discussion was had about safety information and whether it should be available here and in the foundation site you indicated that it didn't need to be here on this site but that a link could be provided. Others wanted it here to discuss it openly. I also noted that the accident information in that thread doesn't appear to be updated as it should have been. See it here:

http://www.sonexbuilders.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1852&hilit=sonex+accidents

I've repeatedly stated how much I like the way this air frame performs and I've flown a number of ultralights, light sport, and general aviation aircraft. This one is my favorite hands down. I have also stated that I think the Aerovee can be a good choice on a light weight, slick, tail wheel airplane that isn't overloaded or flown on really hot days. It is my belief that the little VW is being pushed a bit too hard and because of that reliability (longevity) suffers and that is why head & valve work is required quite often. I don't care for the Aerocarb and won't use one. I won't get into the reasons but it startles me that Sonex is celbrating their 20th anniversary and they made a simple carb for the exact same engine (80HP VW) for many years and yet so many are still having difficulty at the outset with some using #2 needle, others a 2.5 or 3 and still others having to grind custom needles, not to mention beating up the threads to keep the setting from changing during adjustment, etc. I'm of the belief that at some point they would have locked in a set up that worked out of the box for the very engine it was designed for.

Many have come forth to say the fix for the burps is easy. Might be but is that in the carb manual? Saying the problem isn't the carb where the "burps" are concerned is not quite correct as the carb should be designed for the environment it will be in or the exact requirements for the fuel system should be set forth. BTW ... a study of accident data proves that most accidents in experimental airplanes are caused by subsequent owners i.e second and third owners and verifies what Kerry was stating. Most common cause is loss of control in flight. Behind that is "engine failure for unknown reasons" which is the verdict in most Aerovee engine related crashes.

I want Sonex to succeed! They know how to do this and they've done it before. Were you around during the "box baffle" days? Many said everything was fine but others were beating their heads against the wall try to fix cooling issues. Sonex stepped up and designed the "fence baffle system" and life was much better. They also did their magic when Aerovees were shedding props (yes it was more than two as some have erroneously reported) by 1) designing a better crank, 2) better prop hub, 3) opening up the oil plug on # 4 bearing, 4) offering to facorty mount the prop hub on the crank. Presto! No more issues! *** See Edit Notes *** Now they just need to do that with the Aerocarb!

***Edit*** In view of some recent accident data with Aerovee equipped Sonex aircraft it appears that the prop separation concerns may still be an issue. For instance:

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20170604X50503&AKey=1&RType=HTML&IType=LA
https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20151116X55444&AKey=1&RType=HTML&IType=LA

***EDIT***

So please don't ask to limit the free exchange of ideas. I know sometimes the information gets lost and the smoke gets thick. The problem I have is seeing people on this list tell things that are untrue (read lies) and when called out one of three things happen; 1) they double down and insist they are correct in the face of absolute proof to the contrary, 2) they go away mad, 3) they PM the moderator that sends a PM to say "please be nice to "_ _ _ _ " as you hurt their feeling and they might leave the group over this." Yes seriously all three have happened.

Sorry this got so long but the truth is ... I don't have any hard feelings or a grudge against anyone. I really, really, really, want Sonex to be amazingly successful. But that can't happen in a place where open and honest dialog is hindered.

Dale Williams
N319WF @ 6J2
Myunn - "daughter of Cleanex"
120 HP - 3.0 Corvair
Tail Wheel - Center Stick
Signature Finish 2200 Paint Job
171.9 hours / Status - Flying
Member # 109 - Florida Sonex Association
Latest video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VP7UYEqQ-g

[EdW]

Gosh, I really didn't mean to open up old wounds. All I wanted was true info on any engine anomalies that we as a community have incurred. I agree that there will always be differences of opinion, and that discussions sometimes get heated. That's why I've never met a poor divorce lawyer.

But all I asked for was factual data, possibly from those of you who have the best (first hand) recollections. I feel bad that my inquiry lit up the board.

Now that the situation of factual information is out in the open, is there any progress in getting a FACTUAL data base started here? It would be beneficial to all, builders and prospective builders alike. If just one mishap is averted by what someone wrote/read here the 'teething pains' will be well worth it.

Like I said above, We live and we learn. Then we die and forget everything.

Ed

[daleandee]

But all I asked for was factual data, possibly from those of you who have the best (first hand) recollections. I feel bad that my inquiry lit up the board.

Now that the situation of factual information is out in the open, is there any progress in getting a FACTUAL data base started here? It would be beneficial to all, builders and prospective builders alike. If just one mishap is averted by what someone wrote/read here the 'teething pains' will be well worth it.

Hi Ed,

It ain't as bad as it may seem. I trust no one gets offended when the conversation gets to the adult stage. In truth a lot was learned here. I've had several off line conversations during this thread and many agree that some things need to be said although sometimes it's difficult to go through the process ... what you note about divorce lawyers is true.

Kerry made an excellent point that I hope others noticed, and that is that even if new owners are aware of some of these issues they may not be aware that a fix is available. I don't know that the fix for "burps" is in the carb manual but even if it is; a second or third owner may not get the information and if the issue isn't resolved it could be a reason for concern later. The information being easily found here might be the help someone needs to not be aggravated or end up in a mishap.

There are other companies and groups out there (I won't call names) that polish the great news and try to obscure any negativity. I want Sonex to be successful. They have always been a straight up company and I believe that is a reason they are celebrating 20 years in business this month. As I noted in my post earlier ... Sonex is very good about addressing issues. Sometimes they are focused on other things and the noise of the group gets them to look at something that may be of concern that they are either not aware of or not focused on because they are busy with something else.

I like the piece that Jeff Shultz wrote about how to avoid the "burps" and think it should be edited perhaps to be part of the carb manual, a Foundation document, and placed here under the topic of safety. That way anyone looking can find it and anyone asking can be pointed to it.

Dale Williams
N319WF @ 6J2
Myunn - "daughter of Cleanex"
120 HP - 3.0 Corvair
Tail Wheel - Center Stick
Signature Finish 2200 Paint Job
171.9 hours / Status - Flying
Member # 109 - Florida Sonex Association
Latest video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VP7UYEqQ-g

[andrewp]

Each to their own experience, but it wasn't a big deal for me. I have a gascolator and a Jab 3300 and got a little bit of a hesitation leaned back in cruise during flight test in summer back in 2013. I wrapped the exhaust and thermally protected the gascolator and the line to the carb. I haven't cared about it since.

I have to say that the aerocarb has been reasonably kind to me. It may not be sexy, ain't it ain't GAMI fuel injection allowing you to run lean of peak (etc, etc) but it works and it is simple.

I am more scared of getting carb ice in the 182E! (seriously, I manage carb heat like it was an oxygen supply to my brain).

ALSO: I demand more posts from Kerry. They don't even have to be about airplanes.

Keep smilin' you lot,

AP

[Klimek]

I figured it out. Mine does not burp, starve for fuel or any thing like that.
I have fuel lines and gascolater per the plans. Long before I completed my Onex
I stood back and thought about the fuel getting hot and creating vapor lock,
"burping" or hot starting problems.
By installing a shield between the right exhaust and fuel line, gasclator and insulating
the fuel components in the engine compartment with high temp NASCAR type
Padded blanket and tape, I have avoided any fuel related performance problems.
I'm not an engineer and I try not to overthink things too much. I apply logic as much as I
can, read up on things relating to what I'm doing and apply it to whatever I'm doing.
Maybe I've just been lucky.
I have a small oil leak on the AeroVee I built..."I" built...and as a 24 year VW tech veteran
I've built a bunch .
My plane is no show stopper, if you saw it at the Sonex homecoming in 2017 you'd agree. It has mostly steam gauges but performs wonderfully.
Sonex is a great company with great support and a great product. It does none of us, including our brand, any good to bash them.
Frank
ONEX 090
Tail dragger
Still in one piece
New fuel tank (crap happens)
AeroVee 2180
AeroInjector
Steam gauges

[builderflyer]

The burps are not a new thing, nor are the reasons why a mystery. The cause and solution is simple. Burps are caused by fuel vapor bubbles traveling through the AeroCarb and into the engine. When a vapor bubble hits the intake, the mixture goes lean and the engine stumbles. This is the "burp".

Folks, the bottom line is this. The burps are something that we understand, and the solutions are well known. Do your fuel system properly using the accumulated knowledge, and you'll be just fine.

Jeff

The only thing I found missing from Jeff's comprehensive message on this subject was regarding the brand of gascolator used, if one is used at all. My Sonex began its life with an ACS gascolator and with that gascolator, my engine would "cough" on every extended climb despite having accomplished all of the usual preventative measures. With Kerry's urging, it wasn't until I switched to an Usher gascolator that the "coughing" issue finally went away. Just one other thing to consider.

Art,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Sonex taildragger #95,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Jab 3300 #261

[daleandee]

I want to personally thank each & everyone that participated in this thread and brought to light some things that needed to be known. I trust someone can assemble this info into a document that Sonex may consider adding to their carb manual or including on their site, perhaps on the Foundation site and here as a safety item. Some of the things to keep in mind:

1) Kerry's warning that subsequent owners of these aircraft need this same information and it needs to be available to them. If you know
someone that has bought a second hand Sonex or if you plan to sell a Sonex please include not only this safety information but all safety info.

2) Be careful what you insulate with as some can be highly flammable.

3) The type of gascolator used (I did not know this) can cause issues with burping. FWIW my Cleanex has a cover and blast tube on the
gascolator.

4) Different fuel blends if using Mogas (auto fuel).

5) Consider OAT before flight.

6) Avoid long taxi & ground runs before take-off.

7) If it don't run right on the ground ... leave it on the ground.

I'm certain there is much more to be added but these are what jumped out at me the most.

Dale Williams
N319WF @ 6J2
Myunn - "daughter of Cleanex"
120 HP - 3.0 Corvair
Tail Wheel - Center Stick
Signature Finish 2200 Paint Job
171.9 hours / Status - Flying
Member # 109 - Florida Sonex Association
Latest video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VP7UYEqQ-g

[Rynoth]

It ain't as bad as it may seem. I trust no one gets offended when the conversation gets to the adult stage. In truth a lot was learned here. I've had several off line conversations during this thread and many agree that some things need to be said although sometimes it's difficult to go through the process ... what you note about divorce lawyers is true.

As someone that has been both active on this forum and dormant for extended periods of time, it's quite apparent to me that there is a level of toxicity in posts in recent weeks/months that I haven't seen before. I'm all about being constructive and fleshing out the good and the bad, while hopefully leaving emotion on the side of the conversation.

I also like what we've learned from this thread and am actually going to update my fuel line insulation setup as a result. I just wish the conversation could have taken a cleaner path to get there, and that goes for a lot of other recent threads on this forum as well.