The Value Issue?

[LarryEWaiex121]

Observed a number of posts lately referencing values of Sonex aircraft on the used market.
If I could have seen the future when I went the direction of my Waiex, I'd have pulled a different trigger. I'd have gone the route of RV. That's a pretty shocking statement for me considering how much I love my Waiex.
I was talking with a friend of mine just a couple days ago; lamenting what has happened to the value of a good used Sonex and we both agreed, it has little to do with Basic Med. The main factor is the lack of a good engine for the airframe. Don't jump ahead and start yelling, "but mine is doing fine".
RV'ers don't have to be an engine tuner/mechanic to get decent service out of their engines. Combine that with the fact that probably half RV'ers don't even build the majority of their planes (so much for 51% rule, wink, wink). Bottom line is they get to go fly with a huge advantage in reliability.
Now, I know there are the value arguments. Pay less and do more for yourself. What isn't a selling point now is you pay pretty much 70% of the price when you build a loaded up Sonex and then if you choose to sell it............well grab your ankles and hang on.
You can spin this a hundred different ways and blame everyone you care to blame. Outcome is the same. Market resale pretty much sucks. Its a shame for us owners that dreamed, not unfairly, our investments might get us back 50 cents on the dollar.
Experience has now taught me that us Jabiru owners were a testing ground. Us Camit guys ended up being a failed business argument we had no hand in. Aero-Vee owners have their own dilemma's to deal with.
Again, great airframe looking for a great engine. Possibly, in time, a better engine might result in better resale? As matters stand now, the low market prices honestly reflect the value in the publics eye.
I'd rather just use mine up enjoying the view than let it go for peanuts.

Larry
Waiex121YX, Camit 3300, Skyview, Approaching 600 hrs.

[daleandee]

Experience has now taught me that us Jabiru owners were a testing ground. Us Camit guys ended up being a failed business argument we had no hand in. Aero-Vee owners have their own dilemma's to deal with.

Well Larry ... you can always come over to the dark side! Muuuhhhaaaa!



For a better view of the above image: https://flycorvair.net/2014/11/20/dale-williams-3000-cc-cleanex-at-cc31/

Dale Williams
N319WF @ 6J2
Myunn - "daughter of Cleanex"
120 HP - 3.0 Corvair
Tail Wheel - Center Stick
Signature Finish 2200 Paint Job
170.5 hours / Status - Flying
Member # 109 - Florida Sonex Association
Latest video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VP7UYEqQ-g

[LarryEWaiex121]

Dale,

Mike January kept me in the loop as he was converting his Waiex to Corvair. He's really thought this thing out and he seems to be very convinced of its merits. If not for the loss in useful load it would be a very appealing option. Mike, like weighs 150 lbs with his socks on. Add almost another 90 lbs for me. It would make taking a passenger almost a non starter.
I'm afraid that some will take my post wrong but that's the chance I take. Love, love love my Waiex. I even love my Camit. Loved my Jabiru somewhat less with all the drama about SB's and flywheels, and pistons wrong ways, warped heads, stuck valves, uneven EGT's, CHT's, lifters pumping up, cams going flat, oil pumps pulsing. Oh my goodness! The drama. And I'm certain I already forgot half of the honorable mentions.
Design a really cool looking engine and then figure out later how to make it work in the hands of the "average guy". Not the guy down the street that can build a hotrod with an English wheel and polish crankshafts in his own shop.
Never owned an Aero-Vee because it was a non-starter for me in Idaho. I feel a lump in my throat every time I hear about another one quitting. Makes no difference the reason. Just seems a good many owners either get it wrong or something's going on? Hence my feelings some 6 1/2 yrs of flying later as to the real reason for the falling values of our toys.

Larry

[Spinnetti]

Well, like when buying a sports car, you can't be doing it for resale, but for the enjoyment of it. I get that resale sucks, and it might very well be engines but build it to fly it not to sell it. I'm torn between a Waiex turbo and an RV-8 myself. Don't like what I'm seeing on the engine front for Sonex, but don't want to pay the Lycoming tax either, but by the time you put a rotax on the Sonex, might as well go the rest of the way for an RV. First world problems.

[kmacht]

Coming out with a b model and discontinuing parts for the a model certainly didn't help either.

It used to be that a sonex would sell for more than you could typically build it for. That was unusual in the homebuilt aircraft market. The difference back then was that it was much closer to a plans built plane and most people put very little money into their panel. Before paint I had well.under 15k into my scratch built sonex. Today that would be very hard to do. The match hole kits, hydraulic brakes, laser cut baffles, interior kits, etc all add to the cost to build. The upside is that it is easier to build and there are more flying.

Don't think that an rv is any better for resale. You may come close to breaking even if you build a very basic plane with no extras but the same could be said for the sonex.

The engine issue is a completely different story. The number of engine issues and accidents due to engine failures certainly isn't helping resale value but I don't think finding a more reliable engine is suddenly going to turn a 25k sonex into a 50k rv.

Keith
#554

[WaiexN143NM]

Hi all,
The biggest draw about the sonex products i believe is that they are LSA . Vans has one model the RV-12. , thats LSA. I did see at sun and fun years ago a RV9 taildragger built very light that was LSA.
Engines. Us jab guys went thru the jab pains , but im happy with my 3300. Rotax and UL now avbl. Viking and Corvair also options. The i fly MW.
Aerovee, Most parts being made overseas, out of country. Quality up for grabs. Most parts made for the car aftermarket people. QC before shipping ??
Its too bad the 'B' models didnt raise the gross to 1320.lbs. maybe a foot extra wingspan each side to keep LSA stall speeds, and offer motor mounts for Cont. O-200, and Lyc O-233/235. Maybe it could still be done? Lets call it the B+.
I think the prices will come back up. What im worried about is insurance companies willing to insure the fleet with the number of accidents we have . Or the rates going up.
Also the new basic med rules didnt help the LSA values either.
Thoughts?
Fly safe everyone!!

WaiexN143NM
Michael

[daleandee]

If not for the loss in useful load it would be a very appealing option. Mike, like weighs 150 lbs with his socks on. Add almost another 90 lbs for me. It would make taking a passenger almost a non starter.

Just wanted to clarify the useful load scenario with the Cleanex (C model) airplanes with the Corvair conversion. I have a useful load of slightly over 500 lbs. Of course that meant bumping the gross ~8% to 1250. Tested to that and it handles like an airplane at gross. If you went without the extras I have (paint, dual landing lights, etc) you might build a polished legacy model C (Cleanex) at an empty weight of ~700 lbs. Set the gross at 1200 and you still have a 500 lbs useful load.

I typically carry myself, full fuel, a bit of baggage, and a passenger (sometimes the wife) and I'm still under gross. Many of the Jabiru 3300 models are set to a gross of 1250 lbs and others can confirm the airplane has no bad habits at that weight as long as the CG & weight & balance are correct. Being a little guy or having a little wife is a wonderful thing. I'm only a doughnut or two away from 200 lbs most days. If my passenger weighs more than I do then it starts to get a bit crowded in there anyway.

I believe that Mike January & I are the only ones on the list that have flown both the Aerovee and Corvair conversions on this air frame. I really do get a LOT of off line inquires concerning the Cleanex and Corvair engines in general. I personally think it's a mistake for any company not to endorse and make a path forward for any engine that can reasonably be used. Zenith does that with their product. They will assist in any way they can to help the customer put whatever FWF package on the airplane that will work (within reason of course). While Dan Weseman designed many parts for the Corvair and built his prototype Panther with a Corvair engine, he was wise enough to offer mounts and cowlings for a variety of engines that he perceived his customers would be using. The fact that he used the Corvair to launch a brand new airplane concept should not be minimized. Dan is an incredibility intelligent individual and isn't known for taking foolish chances. What he did speaks volumes about this engine.

All this being said ... I'm not anti-VW engines at all. I'm just of the persuasion that what it's being asked to do on this air frame is slightly beyond what can reasonably be asked of it and keep it within the realm of high reliability. It does work on a very light tail dragger but will require dilligence on the maintenance (heads & valves especially).

Just one man's experienced opinion. YMMV but I doubt it!

Dale Williams
N319WF @ 6J2
Myunn - "daughter of Cleanex"
120 HP - 3.0 Corvair
Tail Wheel - Center Stick
Signature Finish 2200 Paint Job
170.5 hours / Status - Flying
Member # 109 - Florida Sonex Association
Latest video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VP7UYEqQ-g

[peter anson]

Just to get a different perspective on things, the few RV12s I have seen for sale in Australia have generally had an asking price of around A$75,000, but on current prices it would probably cost well over A$90,000 to build one. So what is worse, losing $15-20K on an aircraft that cost you over $90K or losing $15-20K on an aircraft that cost you say $40K? I suspect not too many people make a profit building their own aircraft but it is an interesting and very satisfying experience. The only Vans kit that easily fits my RAA registration requirements is the RV12, and if I had started building one of those I would probably still be saving for some of the sub-kits.
Peter Anson
Sonex 894
Jab 3300
352 hours and it's a hoot to fly

[Brett]

Very good point.

[pfhoeycfi]

After taking my shot at triathlon (IMLP '13), building a Sonex will be a bargain ...even if I have to build every part twice. I guess value is relative.

peter