Siezed low-time neglected turbocharger

[John Monnett]

If a fan would fail on the ground so what?

I thought this was supposed to be a set and forget system, you could walk away after shutdown and assume the fan will run until the system has cooled down enough?
So if the fan fails after a minute, how are you going to know before your next flight that has happened if you walked away? How can you be sure your turbo was adequately cooled after shutdown and the coking has not occurred?

If one would actually look at the data we provided they would see it clearly shows we tested the system without the fan running with good results. Convection cooling works without the fan or pump but to a much lesser degree. The most significant result, however, was obtained when using only the pump. The "So what" factor is that failure of the fan is no big deal and temps would be controlled to "acceptable levels" without it. Note: It is the responsibility of the operator to monitor the system temps after shutdown from time to time to detect abnormal changes in system operation due to a failure of the fan or pump.

[Area 51%]

I might be remembering this wrong........but aren't there a couple of dryer vents at the top rear of the factory Waiex cowling? Seems a simple/elegant (ok.....maybe not elegant) solution to induce convective cooling at that point.

[WaiexN143NM]

Hi all, john,
I wish to respond to your earlier post. I posted a nice post about good wishes to find a fix and make the customers happy , maybe in time to get them flying again and to airventure 18. I mentioned that sun & fun was coming up. And that 'maybe' red one the waiex B with the turbo would be making the trek. A good climate to test the turbo fix in much warmer conditions. I havent seen any press release yet. Im not quite sure ' what i dont understand' . Your general manager put out a press release a few years ago that a change in events now make it possible to present at Sun & Fun again. I was there in 2015, saw the yellow sonex N123SX with the first turbo there. It flew there. I saw the red waiex B there in 2016. I thought it flew there, i guess now it was trailered. I did not attend in 2017, dont know if you presented a display or plane. Most kit mfgr's attend S &F. Most kit mfgr's fly their aircraft there.
Your comments directed at your customer base are over the top. Do you realize the damage you are doing to your brand? Comments alledging a lack of knowledge, or experience , a nefarious agenda, or being ignorant. Wow. There are alot of very accomplished people on the forum. Professionals who are engineers by trade, techie types who have great minds to ask these tech questions or offer advice, to help you be successful . You asked for civility yourself in an earlier post. You disregarded your own request. At 75 i doubt you are going to change. Maybe it would be best if Mark S. Responded to the forum. I cant even imagine Van on the vans site, one of the Heintz family on the zenith site, John McBean on the kitfox site, would respond to their customers with this kind of outburst directed to their customers. I would expect the kitplane mfgr to be classy and professional
Please consider what i have said.

WaiexN143NM
Michael

[jerryhain]

John and Mark, I really appreciate all the effort you’re putting into solving the turbo charger problem. You’re doing exactly the same thing I had planned on doing when I finish building my aerovee. I recently started working on my oneX kit after a multiple year delay to build my hanger and house. Please try to ignore some of the “professionals“ who may be very intelligent but sometimes lack common sense and tact.
To those who didn’t read the company posts with understanding you should know that even if you lost the coolant it would still work just fine for the one or two flights it should take you to realize there is a problem. You will be able to hear the pump working and the fan after shut down.
I’m taking the build very slow and looking forward to many years of enjoyment flying my oneX.

[lutorm]

I think it would be good for everyone to step back, take a deep breath and apply the Principle of Charity here, ie interpret people's statements in the most positive way possible. Don't assume that a question means a challenge rather than a simple request for information, and assume that everyone is acting in good faith. The bluntness of online discussions being what it is, anything else and you get something that's bound to end up in a death spiral.

[John Monnett]

Hi all, john,

Your comments directed at your customer base are over the top. Do you realize the damage you are doing to your brand? Comments alledging a lack of knowledge, or experience , a nefarious agenda, or being ignorant. Wow. There are alot of very accomplished people on the forum. Professionals who are engineers by trade, techie types who have great minds to ask these tech questions or offer advice, to help you be successful . You asked for civility yourself in an earlier post. You disregarded your own request. At 75 i doubt you are going to change. Maybe it would be best if Mark S. Responded to the forum. I cant even imagine Van on the vans site, one of the Heintz family on the zenith site, John McBean on the kitfox site, would respond to their customers with this kind of outburst directed to their customers. I would expect the kitplane mfgr to be classy and professional
Please consider what i have said.

Michael,
I am indeed sorry you were offended by my comments and how you took those remarks personally! Regardless, we (Sonex) get comments constantly about the handful of posters who are exactly how I portrayed them and how others express frustration with them to the point of leaving the list. The vast, vast majority of our customers are great, respected, offer valuable ideas and support for what the Sonex community is all about. We do all in our power to serve and satisfy them. For those very few that just spout off, give their uninformed opinion, lead the conversation astray, complain about problems without contacting Sonex first and have nothing positive to contribute (you should know who the are) I will continue to call them out.

[Sonex570]

"There are alot of very accomplished people on the forum. Professionals who are engineers by trade, techie types who have great minds to ask these tech questions or offer advice, to help you be successful"

I am scratch building Sonex 570 and I couldn't even begin to tell you how hard it would be to design this aircraft with NO plans, even with the plans their are times I have to really study the plans, look at other builders pictures and occasionally send a request into tech support for guidance, although this is not related to the turbo issue, I am amazed by John and other designers that can take a bunch of aluminum and make such a robust, strong air-frame and other components(ie turbo)with common hand tools and turn them into great plans for the average Joe. John keep up the great work and innovations and keep that fire burning!

[rizzz]

Hi all, john,

Your comments directed at your customer base are over the top. Do you realize the damage you are doing to your brand? Comments alledging a lack of knowledge, or experience , a nefarious agenda, or being ignorant. Wow. There are alot of very accomplished people on the forum. Professionals who are engineers by trade, techie types who have great minds to ask these tech questions or offer advice, to help you be successful . You asked for civility yourself in an earlier post. You disregarded your own request. At 75 i doubt you are going to change. Maybe it would be best if Mark S. Responded to the forum. I cant even imagine Van on the vans site, one of the Heintz family on the zenith site, John McBean on the kitfox site, would respond to their customers with this kind of outburst directed to their customers. I would expect the kitplane mfgr to be classy and professional
Please consider what i have said.

Michael,
I am indeed sorry you were offended by my comments and how you took those remarks personally! Regardless, we (Sonex) get comments constantly about the handful of posters who are exactly how I portrayed them and how others express frustration with them to the point of leaving the list. The vast, vast majority of our customers are great, respected, offer valuable ideas and support for what the Sonex community is all about. We do all in our power to serve and satisfy them. For those very few that just spout off, give their uninformed opinion, lead the conversation astray, complain about problems without contacting Sonex first and have nothing positive to contribute (you should know who the are) I will continue to call them out.

John,
When you accused me of having "lack of experience", it was in a direct response to my post where I made great effort to explain in high detail what my "experience" was with such fans and why I thought it would be relevant in your application.

Now if you're going to accuse me of having "nothing positive to contribute" or have some sort of malicious "agenda" towards your brand, please consider the following:
- I have a website dedicated to building my Sonex,
- I have a YouTube channel entirely dedicated to building testing and flying my Sonex,
- I am a long time and quite active member of this forum and the one before it on Yahoo, I help people actively where I can, I share experience and yes, I'm also critical at times,
- I am president of our local SAAA (Australian version of EAA) chapter and when it was time to do the W&B on my Sonex, I turned that into a "workshop" for our and nearby SAAA chapters, plenty of people showed up, at least one of which is also on this forum,
- When I completed Phase 1 testing of my Sonex, again I held a workshop for local SAAA chapters with videos, slides and lots of documentation.

All of this is great promotion of your brand! You cannot just go out and make such accusations of malicious agendas or having nothing positive to contribute. You don't know me!
May I remind you as well John this is called a "discussion forum" for a reason. We can discuss things here and we don't all have to agree all the time. As long as we remain "civil" as you say, so if your response is that the fan failing is no big deal because cooling is still adequate, just say so and we can discuss further. Why the insults or personal attacks?

[John Monnett]

Michael,

"John Monnett wrote:
that is the number one reason that at nearly 75 I am still involved at the heart of this endeavor but continue to marvel at armchair "experts" that have to express their opinions on this forum regardless of their knowledge, experience, agenda or just plain ignorance."

I am sorry you misunderstood my comments about a "hand full of posters". I believe you took it as a personal attack probably because it was awkwardly placed in my response post. I was trying to convey to you and the members of this group the frustration felt by myself and my team at Sonex about such posters described above that post with impunity. The comment should have been made in separate post so as to not confuse the issues.
In no way was this comment directed at you an accusal, a criticism of you, or a demeaning of your efforts and contributions. Of course you are a very valued and appreciated member of the Sonex family. I again apologize!
We will however, find a better way to test the fan than flying in foggy and rainy conditions. ;)

[NWade]

I was thinking and researching the fan stuff a bit last night, and have a couple of brief armchair (said with my tongue planted in my cheek) comments on the Fan & moisture susceptibility:

There is a standard called "IP" ("intrusion protection") that some manufacturers adhere to. Wikipedia has a good breakdown of what the ratings mean. If I'm understanding it correctly, something like an "IP55" rated (or NEMA 4 enclosure) fan is probably good-enough for our application. The catch is that a lot of smaller fans (like 120mm computer cooling fans) are manufactured in China and the ratings that are claimed may not be legitimate, so it would be important to find a reputable brand who's testing/IP-rating claims can be trusted.

As for testing - One could use a small sprayer (such as that used for spraying weed killer or pesticide) to wet the fan & radiator down with water, let it sit for awhile, then perform ground runs or a test cell; with some repetition over the course of several days to see if corrosion starts to build up or anything shorts out. Alternatively, one could zip-tie a garden misting system to the engine mount or other FWF structure near the radiator/fan, and have it emitting a spray during engine runs. Of course both of these methods have the potential to cause damage to electronics and/or create a big mess; so its has to be assembled and tested with care - I wouldn't expect anyone to run out and make this happen over a weekend!

Finally, its important to remember that everything on our aircraft corrodes or wears-out over time. Replacing a $10 part every 5 years is arguably better than finding a $200 part that lasts 15-20... Its about risk mitigation, not risk elimination. :-)

--Noel