Siezed low-time neglected turbocharger

[WaiexN143NM]

Hi all,
Yes the UL motors have option for dual alt, robert the rep for UL told me that as osh a couple years ago. Don sounds like he has a good set up in his viking 110 waiex. Dual batteries And a warning lite for the alt.
Does anyone have a UL motor other than leroy, or the super onex with the 350? How are you guys liking the engines?
When we go out on lake superior in the summer on the family boat its got two inboard outboards, prop shafts, props, alt's , and two batteries. Both engines and systems independant from each other. Just in case. Never get caught stranded, heat , sun or a storm. Always home for pizza and beer. Just like an airplane tho, running on one shaft is a beast to handle.
This thread is way off track , but thats ok.

Take care,
Michael

[Archer123]

My plan for the turbo at the moment is to add water cooling with a small radiator mounted lower than the turbo and the reservoir mounted well above the turbo for passive cooling. I really want to see how little cooling fluid I can get away with. If it works that will probably be my cabin heat source too.

I think you want the radiator above the turbo. The idea is that hot water from the turbo will rise into the radiator and cool down, setting up a thermal siphon. The Garrett white paper referenced earlier in the thread talks about how to facilitate this self-circulation.

This is correct. The hotter water is less dense than the colder water. As the water cools it becomes more dense (heavier) and therefor will want to go down. In a closed loop, its this heavier water that is driving the other leg back up into the radiator. The Radiator needs to be the high point in the system. We use this principle in the power plant for natural circulation. Our Steam Generators are higher than the reactor just in case the reactor coolant pumps fail we can generate enough natural flow to keep the reactor cool. Heat sink higher that source, minimize bends and use as large of tubing as possible to reduce friction.

Best of luck

FWIW...

Anyone considering a Turbo "soak back system". They are used on high horsepower diesel engines and work very well. This "technology" has been around forever in the diesel locomotives we maintain. The "soak back" pump is a small electrically driven pump with a timer, (we set them at 30 minutes), that circulates the crankcase lube oil through the bearing after the engine is shut down. Works like a champ and "protects" these very expensive components ... and maintains reliability for years. We're talking engines from 1200 HP to 6000 plus..

Disclaimer: I do not have a Sonex turbo... or even a Sonex at this point... but I'm darn sure interested...

[tx_swordguy]

I do not have a sonex but am considering one in the near future. That said what I was considering is a turbo and with what is being stated in this thread I was wondering if putting a cooling fan either through the cowl inlet or the cowl exit would help the turbo issues. What I am asking about is basically using an electric fan with some ductwork up to the cowl inlets to basically cool the engine compartment after the engine stops. I know that does not move the oil but it would cool the turbo from the outside faster than just letting it sit all covered up. Would that be enough to help with the turbo problems?
Mark

[MichaelFarley56]

Hi Mark,

Welcome to the forums. You have a good idea but those who have tried that haven’t noticed any difference. People have tried electric cooling fans, removing the cowling entirely, cutting vents into the cowling, etc.

While testing is continuing, it seems the permanent solution may be some sort of liquid cooling; either coolant circulation or continued oil circulation after engine shut down.

[Spinnetti]

Hmm. Considering the turbo, but I'd never run turbos without water cooling on my street cars, and the risk is orders of magnitude higher here... Seems like there should be some sort of water cooling. A small radiator on the firewall with a little swirl pot and cap would be light and simple I'd think (Feels like ceramic ball bearings like I have in the car would be better too).

[n307tw]

Hey guys. This is definitely an interesting thread. I'm building a B-Model and already purchased the mount and despite the controversy I am committed to getting the Aerovee Turbo. I've followed in this forum silently the issues Bill Larson and Mike Farley have had with their turbos. I am confident Sonex will come up with a solution and have no reason to bad mouth them. I have a couple questions/thoughts and I will let everyone contribute their $0.02 and I love this forum because everyone has something to say, constructive or not.

1. Is there any downside to having a completely separate oil system for just the turbo with a second oil cooler? My thinking is to possibly have a separate electric oil pump (redundant with a second pump) with a fully synthetic Royal Purple or Mobil1 supplied closed turbo oiling system but honestly I do not know how much real estate is in the B-Model cowling for this. It may be nice to just keep the oil pump going after shutdown to circulate oil for a few minutes and wait for a temp sensor to read low readings before shutting off the pump. I do like the idea of maybe a small water cooled system as well. It is encouraging that Mark and the factory are looking at a cooling solution for the turbo as that is probably part of the problem, but I am speculating like the rest of us.

2. Has anyone looked at or experimented with the Royal Purple Fully Synthetic HPS formula in their Aerovee/Turbo? It apparently has a high zinc and phosphorus content which is great for the VW's and the zinc and phosphorus are compatible with leaded fuels. It may be good to see if anyone has had any luck with using this. As a side note I bought into the Royal Purple crazy in the early 2010s and run it in all my land vehicles and while its a little more expensive I change every 10,000 miles and really love how smooth the engines run on it. It may be a good alternative to the Brad Penn but when I get to that point we will see. Here is a link to their website http://www.royalpurpleconsumer.com/products/hps-motor-oil/.

I know its only February but looking forward to meeting you all at Oshkosh!

[Spinnetti]

Hmm. Separate oil circuit with turbo timer could be quite small and wouldn't add much weight.... not a bad idea. Either that, or small water circuit with a timer. Either really. Myself, feels like this turbo setup is not fully "baked" as a long time car racer, but my thought is to get the aerovee turbo also. One thing I can't quite reconcile however is that "everybody" seems to say the veedub is only good for around 80hp due to cooling. Is the turbo setup so good that it can add 20% more load and not run into thermal issues? Not saying it can't, I just don't understand the math on that one. If I could, I'd put in a 2.0 TFSI instead! As to oil, I've not tried royal purple, but typically run redline in everything except my Audi sports car, and I put Motul in that. I don't buy long change intervals as stuff is there in suspension regardless of the quality of the oil. Fresh oil is cheap insurance.

[Sonex1517]

...It is encouraging that Mark and the factory are looking at a cooling solution for the turbo as that is probably part of the problem, but I am speculating like the rest of us.

As another disgruntled ex-turbo owner (mine is in a box in my garage now) I am going to comment on this. I am not at all confident Sonex is going to do anything at all to improve or resolves issues with the turbo. I am confident I am screwed out of several thousand dollars.

As soon as life and funds permit, I am putting a different engine up front - probably a Corvair 3.3L at this point.

[MichaelFarley56]

1. Is there any downside to having a completely separate oil system for just the turbo with a second oil cooler?

2. Has anyone looked at or experimented with the Royal Purple Fully Synthetic HPS formula in their Aerovee/Turbo?

Hi Tim, you have some excellent questions! I can offer my own two cents but please remember that's pretty much all they're worth. Before I answer though, I do want to say that, while my turbo operation was a work in progress, during the 105 hours I flew my Waiex with the turbo, I loved the way the engine ran! The turbo was always very smooth and powerful with excellent temps, and I haven't ruled out the option of reinstalling the turbo on my Waiex. Now, as for your questions...

1. A completely separate oil system will add a lot of complexity and weight to the engine with unknown results. Also, remember that the engine setup as currently designed works just fine until after engine shut down. The only problems people have are after the engine shuts down. The solution to this whole "turbo coking" issue will be determining a way to remove the heat from the turbo after shut down. Like everyone else, I will be anxiously awaiting the factory news on a liquid cooling solution!

2. I've also heard of the Royal Purple oils and know it's an extremely high quality oil. I'm not sure if it's better than Brad Penn though. I'm sure the factory would be curious to hear of this as a possible alternative to Brad Penn. Great thought!

[daleandee]

...It is encouraging that Mark and the factory are looking at a cooling solution for the turbo as that is probably part of the problem, but I am speculating like the rest of us.

As another disgruntled ex-turbo owner (mine is in a box in my garage now) I am going to comment on this. I am not at all confident Sonex is going to do anything at all to improve or resolves issues with the turbo. I am confident I am screwed out of several thousand dollars.

As soon as life and funds permit, I am putting a different engine up front - probably a Corvair 3.3L at this point.

As an observer to the whole turbo fiasco that has unfolded I can't help but wonder how far down a rabbit hole this is going to go. Years ago when Corvairs were put on this air frame it was absolutely verboten and those that did so were told in no uncertain terms not to use the company name on these hideous beast. We were told that it was because of the FWF weight. Fair enough!

Those, at that time, that drooled over putting a Rotax 4 stroke on these air frames were also rebuffed with the logic that the idea was to keep the airplane simple, K.I.S.S. OK fair enough.

Now we have a VW conversion, heavier because of the iron cylinders, heavier because of the turbo, heavier because of the added oil pump, turbo shield, exhaust wrap, and now they are looking to add a water cooling system (more added weight) in an effort to cool the turbo to keep it from coking up. This still does not address the issue with the heads designed for 60 HP being smitten into producing 100 HP and the effects of the heat on the exhaust valves. And now look at the complexity that has been added with the turbo, additional oil pump and lines, and soon, an additional radiator with the mounting, lines, and equipment needed to make that system work.

Seems to me that the weight and complexity arguments are moot and that this project is heading in the wrong direction. Doesn't it make more sense to start from the beginning and just install a larger HP, air-cooled, direct drive engine and be done with it? Of course I like the Corvair conversion but Jabiru is still making 120 HP engines, & UL Power is available as well as others.

Dale Williams
N319WF @ 6J2
Myunn - "daughter of Cleanex"
120 HP - 3.0 Corvair
Tail Wheel - Center Stick
Signature Finish 2200 Paint Job
168.7 hours / Status - Flying
Member # 109 - Florida Sonex Association
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VP7UYEqQ-g