Update navworx adsb boxes

[kevinh]

Btw - I'd bet dollars to donuts (as an embedded sw engineer who has made drone autopilots for my 'day job') that the internal NMEA+RAIM+etc... stream that Navworx was using for their in box GPS was the problem. And that stream is just 115kbaud serial.

I'm really surprised that their fix wasn't just to bring that serial input out to a header so people could just buy one of the $500 (ouch but oh well) compliant GPS boxes (from uavonix or grand rapids). (Though I haven't been following this clusterf closely so I could be wrong ;-) )

[WaiexN143NM]

Hi kevin,
Ur spot on. The exp boxes were going to have a limited production run of a cigrette sized box, new gps chip and a serial port for software changes/ upgrades. Daisey chained so to speak. The other boxes could be swaped out or repaired with a new chip.
Ugh, dont know what will be the final result . A global faa amoc with a software upgrade and gps chip swap out. Or external certified gps unit.
I dont expect anymore from bill moffitt. What a jerk. Taking peoples money and leaving them stranded . Hes another one for the history books . Would he dare to even show up to oshkosh again still like bede? Bede was regelated to an end spot on the kitplane row. The year of his death no mention of him at eaa oshkosh. Burned too many peoples wallets.

WaiexN143NM
Michael

[andrewp]

From the CPS forum (for background purposes):

Quote:
But replacing one uncertified GPS chip with another uncertified GPS chip?

(snip)

Well technically nothing is certified until the whole unit is approved.

As I understand it, there are only two aviation GPS chips available. Garmin makes one, and the other is known to me only as "model A", which is used by basically everybody except for Garmin. What NavWorx did originally was to go outside the playground and develop their own GPS based on the TSO and the DO-MOPS and they thought that complying with the rules should have been good enough. The gap came from the FAA requiring compliance with internal office policies that went above and beyond the published rules. But again, I digress...

With their "2.0" product, NavWorx asked the FAA what GPS they should use and the FAA told them to use "model A" which they did.

So if model A is not a compliant solution, will the FAA now go after everybody other than Garmin?

Or did the FAA isolate NavWorx again for their own reasons?
(end snip).


AP

[WaiexN143NM]

Hi andrew,all,
I surely think that the problem with this new chip lies in the RAIM, kevin guessed it correct i believe. I surely would have paid a few hundred extra for a gold standard chip from garmin. After everything thats gone on that would have been the way to go. More bad management decisions from navworx. Why would you source a third party chip.? Oh let me see got a good deal from china.

Andrew dont know if some of the comments yours or from cps. But i'll tell you no faa employee is going to stick their neck out in collusion to undermine navworx. Maybe slowball the paperwork, outside of that people are not going to risk their careers, family, or pension, over a two bit adsb company.

Bill moffitt has no one to blame but himself for this mess. As kevin aptly said , a clusterf.

WaiexN143NM
Michael

[andrewp]

Don't mean to rough you up too bad for what you just said, but let's recap:

That means you would be buying garmin and that is it (no one else uses their chip)... I offer you the GDL series (not even the one garmin is about to release) so you wont pay for it, you will buy an EchoSAT or a Stratus ESG or something like it. As someone who has to go certified for our 182, going garmin is 5K +2.5K (at least experience). It is a WAAS GPS so RAIM isn't relevant (RAIM applies to non WAAS GPS) unless I am missing something. I certainly have skin in this game and while I am as upset as the next person, this whole thing has been a total FAA CF. I respected Navworx for trying and I have no issue with their product in our airplane at all. It works absolutely great.

I will likely go the AMOC way with the 182, and try to hang on to the Navworx (I have a 430W in that plane), but again, the whole thing has been really ordinary. Remember when you say two bit ADSB that most experimental (airplanes, avionics) outfits are practically that. Dynon started as that. I don't consider that to be bad thing, it is just the nature of progress.

(If I sound moody about it, trust me it ain't about you at all, and I don't mean to be - I am just pissed with the whole thing, it is disgusting).

[WaiexN143NM]

Hi andrew,
I hear your fustration. Im not a expert by any means on the internal electronics of the units, but have learned alot over the last few years. I thought the RAIM was an intregral part of the unit if there was any gps corrupted signal, and then reported as such. Going back to the sil reporting level of the chip output which got navworx into this mess.

I do respectfully disagree with you on the FAA CF. there has been some comments on the aviation sites attacking the faa, but then numerous people have chimed in to defend the faa. I believe there is no one to blame but bill himself. He changed the sil code without authorization. Then denied access to the faa folks 3 prearranged times. Which they are allowed under far part23 . They then had their mfgr approval revoked. Emergency ad . Publicly attacked the faa on website.

Yes just when we thought there was a light at end of the tunnel, the next CF , created by bill. Well if a garmin chip wont work, then get with the other mfgr's to see where they source their model a chips.
It seems as if he was trying to get the cheapest chip he could find. Straight out of shanghi. A good deal. "Certified' uh huh. I hope he didnt buy 800 of them.

It seems he could source a better model a chip , install it in a unit, ship it to the faa, for their blessing, and move forward.

Lets see what happens, i appreciate your opinion. I hope you someday get to use your investment as intended.

WaiexN143NM
Michael

[WaiexN143NM]

Hi all,
I just re read the whole navworx ad. Also all the posts on vans VAF. Ian jordan a tech from dynon, explained in detail their process of the adsb development, also the navworx development.
Paul Dye editor from kitplanes wants him to do an article. Some vans members have gotten emails from dallas avionics, stating that in a couple weeks there will be a ' special offer' to the stranded navworx owners. I take that as discounts on adsb systems they sell.
3 people on the vans site did an amoc on their units. But of course no software upgrades ever avbl.
After reading everything again my conclusion and opinion:
1) the faa did nothing wrong, and in fact did their job.
2) navworx bad practices put themselves in this position.
3) every other company complied by the rules and sourced an ok chip

The vans article listed about 5 different chip mfgr. Some of you may have a unit installed and flew it and got a report from the faa saying all ok on that flight. The problem arises when the raim has to report an unuseable signal due to corruption, sunspots, military gps downgrade, or cyber malware.
The whole system needs correct data because the future will rely on this data to be correct and for separation of aircraft. The ground radars will eventually become obsolete.
800 plus units in the field, plus more money put down on sales, deposits that owners never recieved any hardware. Wow where is all this $$$$??? And these people asking via phone fax emails wheres my unit ? Wheres my money? Never a reply. Wow what a way to run a business.

If you havent been in contact with dallas avionics , then id suggest in a couple weeks give them a call. See what other offers they have.

Good luck.

WaiexN143NM
Michael

[WaiexN143NM]

Hi all caught this tonite on the aviation web sites. Issued friday by FAA.
Oct 29 on these sites:
Www.aero-news.net
Www.avweb.com

Navworx ceased all ops lastweek. Phones, email addresses no longer . Doors locked and lites off.
But not quite. The FAA justproposed a $3,685,000.00 civil penalty against navworx . Gee , maybe the faa will be nice and give us all refunds on our purchases,if they ever collect. Then we can go out and purchase products that meet the advertizing. Bill Moffiit u can run but not hide. Watcha gonna do when the FAA comes for you?

WaiexN143NM
Michael

[andrewp]

I gotta say: ouch. That is going to hurt.

I spoke to the local FSDO during the week and I will AMOC the AD on the box I have in the 182, using the Garmin 430W as its source and that will be fine, but I can't imagine there are any 430Ws in any Sonex anywhere.

There is just no good that comes out of any of this for anyone or anything. Wish it had worked out differently.

[WaiexN143NM]

Andrew,
Dont know if this helps, but on the vans site a few guys have gotten an amoc, under the postings list they had a link for amocs on the navworks using garmin products including the 430 like you.
The only down side i see is software upgrades, but a few guys on vans were sharing the latest software navworks had put out. Dont know if you want to wait a couple weeks to see what dallas avionics comes up with to rescue us. (If they can or still want to)
Yes its very sad it came to this. After everything that has gone on its unbelievable that bill didnt source a known quality gps chip that other faa approved adsb mfgr's were using. To fix this debacle and bet the future of his company on a third party vendor chip is incredible.
Good luck. If i hear about dallas avionics and any fixes i'll post.

WaiexN143NM
Michael