What do I look for when buying used.

[helifrek]

hello all,
I am slowly working on my pilots license but in the meantime I love browsing the barnstormer ads to see what has come up for sale each week. What are some things to look out for when buying a used Sonex? I would of course get it inspected before purchase but to prevent me from driving out to every nice one that I find I would like to be able to eliminate some choices more easily.

One of my biggest concerns is the engine choice. I am leaning more towards a Jabiru 3300 powered Sonex for the extra power. I don't think I live too far from where Jabiru North America is located so getting it worked on would be convenient. My main end goal is for my wife and I to fly home on the weekends to visit family in western NC (350 mile drive). I would be flying over mountains and landing at 24A at an elevation of 2,856 MSL. I am currently 227 Lbs but steadily loosing weight trying to get down to 185 and my wife is about 150 and also working on getting down to about 125 or so. we would fly with only enough baggage for a weekend trip. Am I overdoing it with a Jabiru? which engine choice is considered the most reliable? Thanks in advanced!

[gammaxy]

Here's some pre-purchase guidelines on the Sonex Foundation website:
http://www.sonexfoundation.com/uploads/ ... ion_v2.pdf

You and your wife's current weights with full fuel would be about 50 lbs over the Aerovee's gross weight. I've tested this weight during Phase 1 and climbed at ~330fpm at 4500 feet density altitude). Your goal weight might get you closer to 400fpm and a climb prop (mine is definitely pitched a little too course) might be good for an extra 50-100 fpm. I think the Jabiru would be great and wouldn't be overdoing it at all--just more money.

Homebuilt airplanes are all different and built by people of varying skill levels. As a non-builder you are at a bit of a disadvantage by not being familiar with the quirks of the design or maintenance. For example--a valve adjustment for me is no big deal because I built the engine. If I notice an issue with the brakes, I can easily work on them because I assembled them the first time. If I notice a leaky fuel tank, I'd be annoyed, but I already know how to fix it and drilling out a bunch of rivets on my instrument panel to remove the tank is just an annoyance rather than something that I might totally give up on. Some of these tasks are things different enough from certified airplanes that you might not have anyone available to help locally.

I'd be wary of buying a homebuilt airplane with really low hours that's several years old. It seems there's always planes out there with 40-60 hours that haven't really been flown much. It can take a while to work out the kinks in homebuilt airplanes and you might not be expecting to take on someone else's experiment. If your thought process is like mine, you might decide that a several hundred hour Sonex is more valuable to you than a really low hour one since it has a history of flying reliably over several years. The owner will presumably also have built up enough knowledge of the aircraft to answer your questions.

[builderflyer]

Personally, I'd buy a Cherokee 140 for the mission you describe. It's price will be similar to what you'd pay for a Sonex, it's range will allow you to easily fly your trip nonstop, you and your wife's weights won't be an issue and any A & P mechanic will be able to make repairs if need be. I love my Sonex but I wouldn't be using it in the way you describe.

Just my opinion but writing as one who has been flying for 52 years (12 years in my Sonex) and having owned several Cherokees over the years,

Art,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Sonex taildragger #95,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Jab3300 #261

[vwglenn]

I've looked at several aircraft to purchase over the years. With certified planes, I focus on the aircraft and the books knowing that I'll get a prebuy from some mechanic who is knowledgeable about the type and preferably has never worked on the specific airplane I'm considering purchasing. I simply don't care if the plane had a recent annual or not because I'm going to have it done as soon as I decide it's a worthy candidate for purchase.

When I shopped for experimentals I scrutinized the owners as much as the planes. If anything about the person who owned it made me uncomfortable, I always cut bait no matter how nice the plane appeared to be. I had several experiences where the plane seemed purchasable but the owner just seemed...off. Once I had a guy who hopped in a dusty plane and asked me if I wanted to go for a test flight. No preflight. Didn't even check the oil. I told him that I'd watch it from the ground. Plane screamed over the field and appeared to perform beautifully but had a couple issues cosmetically. Guy got back after a couple high speed passes and asked my opinion. Told him I'd pass. He kept hounding me on why and finally I told him I didn't trust the plane. He still kept pestering me as to why. Finally I told him that I didn't trust HIM and that ended things rather abruptly. My reasoning was that the guy probably put as much into ownership as he did his preflight.

My biggest problem while shopping has always been misrepresentation of the aircraft before I ever saw it. One guy told me his plane was an 8 out of 10 (subjective) so I decided to drive 4 hours to look at it. When I got there It looked like it had been painted with a used roller. Another guy failed to disclose damage even though I asked him specifically about it (drove six hours to see that one). These types of things are red flags for me. If you feel you can't trust the owner/builder to be forthright about obvious things that anyone with a set of eyes can see, you certainly can't trust anything about the aircraft you're about to purchase. This is especially true of experimentals.

The Sonex I bought (#600) will never win any beauty pageants and I knew I'd have to put some work into it when I bought it. It was the owner who seemed absolutely genuine about all of my questions over the phone and when I flew commercially out to finally see it. He let me crawl all over the plane and scrutinize it. His answers were quick and required little thought. Everything he said added up to what I was presented with. That is what convinced me to actually purchase the plane more than the price (which was a good deal for a 3300 powered Sonex).

Given your stated mission, I think you'll want the 3300. As far as dependability, I don't know that there is a whole lot of evidence to support the Aerovee or the Jab being any better. The benefits of the Aerovee are parts availability and cost. Plus you can probably find a local machine shop do do any major stuff that pops up. Even if Jab North America is close, chances are that your engine won't cooperate with you as to when and where it will break. I'm not all that convinced that them being close is as much of a benefit as you would think. As implied above, you're probably better off finding a well flown airplane than a hangar queen. Many of the bugs will be worked out. Even so, you need to get it in your head that any Sonex will require more attention than your typical certified airplane.

[helifrek]

Thanks for the Input guys!

@gammaxy, I figured with what my goals are that an aerovee would not be my first choice unless I had a turbo. With all of the Used Sonex planes popping up on a regular basis I pretty much have my choice of engine! plenty of Jabiru powered ones for a great deal.
I have pretty much the same views as you, buy something over 100 hours that has been through all of the teething pains.

@builderflyer, My main reason for wanting a Sonex vs any other plane was operating costs. I believe a Cherokee would end up costing me much more per hour compared to the Sonex. I will definitely look into it in more detail though! the purchase price for a Cherokee is not bad and you get a couple extra seats. If I plan to fly home quite often on weekends with great weather I don't want to spend up all of my money on fuel! The Sonex just seem so much more economical. We would also probably do a lot of local flights too just doing site seeing. A couple of times a year I would like to fly up to Ohio to visit family as well which would be a long trip in a Sonex but do-able.

Thanks again guys. keep the advice coming!

[jjbardell]

I think it sounds like you want a 2016 130 hr TTAE tri gear turbo with an aux tank. ;). LOL.

[jowens]

Hi helifrek
I would recommend listening to sonexflight.com episode 19 discussion about sonex cross country flights. The guys do a great job on this topic (as always).

[vwglenn]

I'm with you on the operating costs helifrek. My old 170 burned 8 1/2 gallons/hour @ 115mph indicated. My Sonex burns 6 @ 135mph indicated. I can get the same distance in less time on less fuel. I was only good for about 2 1/2 hours in my 170 before I needed to get out and stretch even though it had a 4 hour endurance. I don't have any extended fuel in my Sonex so I start to get really twitchy right around the two hour mark. I generally plan my legs for 1:45 (I'm one of those guys who starts to freak out before my car gets to 1/4 tank). The net result is I can be on the ground, bladder empty, refueled, and taxiing back out in the time it would've taken my 170 to be flying overhead. So the net time it takes me to get anywhere is about the same but MPG is mpg less and the stops are more frequent.

Then there's the overall fun of the Sonex. I use the analogy of the Miata vs a station wagon. One is infinitely more fun to drive while the other has a ton more utility. My mission has evolved over the years. 90% of the time I'm flying on my own so I don't need the utility.

My single biggest expense is storage up to this point. I refuse to own a plane that I can't keep in a hangar. Unless I go Onex, I don't see how to get that cost down any further. If Sonex ever releases a tandem two seat Onex (Twoex?), I think I'm going to have to become a builder.

[andrewp]

Thanks for the Input guys!

@gammaxy, I figured with what my goals are that an aerovee would not be my first choice unless I had a turbo. With all of the Used Sonex planes popping up on a regular basis I pretty much have my choice of engine! plenty of Jabiru powered ones for a great deal.
I have pretty much the same views as you, buy something over 100 hours that has been through all of the teething pains.

@builderflyer, My main reason for wanting a Sonex vs any other plane was operating costs. I believe a Cherokee would end up costing me much more per hour compared to the Sonex. I will definitely look into it in more detail though! the purchase price for a Cherokee is not bad and you get a couple extra seats. If I plan to fly home quite often on weekends with great weather I don't want to spend up all of my money on fuel! The Sonex just seem so much more economical. We would also probably do a lot of local flights too just doing site seeing. A couple of times a year I would like to fly up to Ohio to visit family as well which would be a long trip in a Sonex but do-able.

Thanks again guys. keep the advice coming!

We have two airplanes to feed: the Sonex and our elderly 182. The difference between the two operationally is a whiplash. The Cessna is all about management of cost in terms of things you can't work on like any certified airplane. It is multidimensional chess and lot of Mike Busch videos... and educating yourself to know more than the A+Ps on your model of airplane. We are just changing out the fuel bladder in the right wing and that will be a many thousands before it is done, so fear is part of the experience. We run the 182 on mogas if we can and we fly it at glacial speeds. But it is great to travel in and the family really loves it. When you appear on the ramp, no one cares. The Sonex is much more fun to fly and can absolutely go however far you want, just lots more stops, is easy to fly and for us a family treasure. The Sonex will always be cheaper to operate than the 182 or a Cherokee or anything certified that does more than 100 mph. The fuel is not going to be the deciding factor on the Cherokee, but it will be everything else including avionics, corrosion, other things that go wrong. Not being able to work on the plane yourself is something you miss and it is difficult bargain. Experimental avionics, auto pilots and adsb etc, are just amazing compared to certified went ranked by cost. When you turn up in the Sonex, everyone still comes out for a look.

I love the Sonex and (as I have said before), if there was a 4 place Sonex with a UL power engine, I would likely build it (or would have). If it was between a 140 Cherokee and the Sonex, I like the Sonex ;-)

Fuel operating cost is important and I understand, but it isn't the only way to look at it. I run the Cessna down at 10-11 GPH in cruise, but it runs locally off 2.80 gas. The Sonex is 5-6 but it takes the $4.50 gas. Horses for courses!

[builderflyer]

It's all about the mission and when I read that the "main end goal" is to load up almost 400 lbs of people and baggage and make a 350 mile (by road) trip on a regular basis (and now I read throw in a couple of trips to Ohio each year), that doesn't speak "Sonex" to me. Can it be done, sure, but I predict much frustration with that means of travel for any number of reasons, given the trip description. Those of you who began your aircraft ownership with a Sonex and then found your travels didn't necessarily fit well with the aircraft should be able to offer good advice on this subject. You are out there, however, probably not all or even many of you remain on this particular list (some are likely to be found on the vans airforce list if they have continued to stay with experimental).

Anyway, just my thoughts,

Art,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Sonex taildragger #95,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Jab3300 #261