Has a NTSB Final been issued for N123SX?

[vwglenn]

I would believe anything Joe says over the findings in the report when it comes to the engine or turbo. He is the expert here. Not the NTSB. Not the FAA. The accident investigators aren't experts anymore than a reporter or a police detective would be. They (investigators) are present to collect evidence, coordinate activities, and maintain integrity of the investigation. They would take any powerplant back to the manufacturer whether it was Lycoming, Continental, GE, or Rolls-Royce. Aerovee is no different. They would maintain chain of custody of the components and no one would touch them without an investigator watching. How do I know how they operate??? I've been to the FAA's accident investigation course and this is what they teach.

In my opinion, turbo failure was not the cause or even a contributing factor to the accident. There simply is no evidence to support it. Even the waste gate functioned as it should. This is a good thing because it virtually eliminates turbo failure a probable cause. Especially when you correlate it to the other factory accident which didn't have the turbo.

I don't know about the rest of you but I don't believe for one second that Sonex would ever knowingly sell a defective product, or attempt to hide any design flaw, or push something they thought was inherently unsafe. Aside from being a horrible business practice for an aviation company, I've met the Monnetts and would find it hard to believe they would ever do anything of the sort. Their son was flying this plane and yet they continue on as he would've wanted. Shame on you if you think they would wish the same for any of us in the wake of this tragedy. Until there is a smoking gun, there's not a whole lot they can do.

[N265DF]

I feel a bit apologetic about adding something to this discussion after all that has been said. But in thinking about the "white smoke" , my memory was joggled about 2 experiences I had quite a few years ago with turbo's, one with actual white smoke, and another a potential one that didn't result in smoke because I noticed during preflight that the turbo housing was covered with oil. I had been flying the airplane daily and had not seen that situation on previous preflights. It is easy to imagine that all kinds of smoke would have appeared if the engine was run, which it was not. The aircraft was taken out of service until a new turbo was installed. The other experience actually involved of white smoke. I was doing a pre-takeoff run up when suddenly this car appeared blocking my path to the runway. It was a person who had seen the smoke appear out of the exhaust (I did not see it since it was behind my view), jumped in his car and rushed out to alert me-the distance to the runway of the non towered airport was quite short. When he signaled to look to the rear, I saw billows of white smoke. Again, the turbo was the culprit.
I do not in any way want to suggest the same happened to N123sx, it just makes me wonder. I think signs of turbo oil leakage, like burn marks would have showed up in the investigation and I don't recall any. I can't imagine either, that if the turbo suddenly busted a seal that a sudden loss of oil pressure would rapidly cause the berings to seize, slow or stop the impellor. Again, don't recall the investigation turning up such sign. I guess all I can really say is from my experience, leaky turbo's can cause "white smoke".

Darrell Frey
Sonex 265
Plans building (still, amazingly enough, after mumble mumble years)

[ihab]

First of all, due respect to everyone, especially Joe Norris and the Sonex team who lost two family members on that day.

Until there is a smoking gun, there's not a whole lot they can do.

To those who choose to think about this question and make it part of their daily flying:

1. What would be the optimal instrumentation such that an engine failure can be better attributed to its cause? Could someone -- Sonex or otherwise -- suggest such a package of instruments? Are these instruments available off the shelf?

2. Is Sonex looking at heavily instrumenting its operational engines to help "trap" a problem should it occur again?

3. What training and preparation could Sonex pilots do for engine-out emergencies so that they take advantage of the low landing speed and robust structure, and avoid stall/spins?

Ihab

[rizzz]

I think we’re done speculating about the possible mechanical failure that could have occurred, I believe the thread stopped being productive on that subject pages ago.

However, I cannot help but write down an observation here regarding how fellow forum member Dale was treated in this thread recently,
Let’s start with an earlier statement from Joe on page 6 in this thread:

…
And don't read more into the report than is there, or try to guess at what is not.
…

To me it seems that is exactly what Dale was doing.
Now, after Dale was bullied out of this conversation by other forum members because he was challenging Joe on his statements in this thread vs. what Dale had read in the report,
both Joe and Mark have made a statement that they do not agree with the wording of the report regarding the cause of the damage found on the turbo, in fact Sonex has formally objected against the report.
It seems to me that considering this new information coming from Sonex the cause of the disagreement between Joe & Dale was very understandable, you can see both points of view if you just think about it objectively for more than a few seconds.

Dale however did not deserve the treatment he got from other forum members just for challenging what he was reading in this thread vs. what he had read in the report, and I think some of us owe him an apology.

[sonex1374]

Am I the only one that feels sensitive about how Joe Norris and the rest of Sonex were being portrayed here? The accusations started right away that Sonex was not being forthright, and even when Joe tried to set the record straight people just kept pushing on him. Then the clamor to stop selling engines with known deficiencies started, again implying that Sonex was hiding something from us. It's ridiculous!

Sonex Aircraft LLC is made up of people....real people....trying to do their best to support us. They go above and beyond to provide outstanding support, even in the face of great personal loss. They all have a sterling reputation, hard earned over decades. Yet we're ready to line them up and start throwing rocks at them.

Our community is based on mutual respect, and we strayed from that standard of conduct. This is an emotionally charged issue, and for my part in not tempering the discussion, I apologize. I'm ready to get back to more productive topics, like figuring out what kind of beer to bring to the next AirVenture BBQ!

Jeff

[rizzz]

Am I the only one that feels sensitive about how Joe Norris and the rest of Sonex were being portrayed here?

I do too, believe me.

The accusations started right away that Sonex was not being forthright, and even when Joe tried to set the record straight people just kept pushing on him.

At the time, people did not know this:

I do not agree with the NTSB's choice of words regarding the description of what we found during the initial investigation.

Or this:

I would like to formally object to the statement in the report’s “Analysis” section -- paragraph 2, sentence 5: “It could not be determined whether the turbocharger would not rotate due to impact damage or whether it seized in flight resulting in a partial loss of engine power.”

Not knowing there is an "official" disagreement between Sonex & the NTSB regarding this issue, it is understandable people question discrepancies they find between the NTSB report and what they hear from one of the experts at Sonex. I can see why people kept "pushing" Joe on this.

Then the clamor to stop selling engines with known deficiencies started, again implying that Sonex was hiding something from us. It's ridiculous!

That was outrages, I totally agree, but I think the wrong person copped the blame for that one.

[andrewp]

I think we’re done speculating about the possible mechanical failure that could have occurred, I believe the thread stopped being productive on that subject pages ago.

... (snip)
Dale however did not deserve the treatment he got from other forum members just for challenging what he was reading in this thread vs. what he had read in the report, and I think some of us owe him an apology.

Treatment, ah, not so much. Apology... what? I am sure Dale is awesome (I don't know him from a bar of soap), but the tone was got me excited. I don't mind the topic of conversation, it is was the accusatory nonsense. I am guessing he has never actually met Joe (maybe he has, I have no idea). Mostly it was the indignant finish to it that made me post which is pretty unnecessary considering the audience. No one has a problem with the discussion (I assume), but I had a problem with the attitude. I am well aware of Dale from his posts and he seems like a knowledgeable and reasonable individual... and he can take into consideration the impact on others in the execution of his argument (read: I am much more put out but what went on here than the tone of my post would indicate, but I suspect that folks have let the electronic medium run away from them a little).

Nuff said.

AP

[andrewp]

Am I the only one that feels sensitive about how Joe Norris and the rest of Sonex were being portrayed here? The accusations started right away that Sonex was not being forthright, and even when Joe tried to set the record straight people just kept pushing on him. Then the clamor to stop selling engines with known deficiencies started, again implying that Sonex was hiding something from us. It's ridiculous!

Sonex Aircraft LLC is made up of people....real people....trying to do their best to support us. They go above and beyond to provide outstanding support, even in the face of great personal loss. They all have a sterling reputation, hard earned over decades. Yet we're ready to line them up and start throwing rocks at them.

Our community is based on mutual respect, and we strayed from that standard of conduct. This is an emotionally charged issue, and for my part in not tempering the discussion, I apologize. I'm ready to get back to more productive topics, like figuring out what kind of beer to bring to the next AirVenture BBQ!

Jeff

Yup, I can agree with that.

[daleandee]

Now, after Dale was bullied out of this conversation by other forum members because he was challenging Joe on his statements in this thread vs. what Dale had read in the report, both Joe and Mark have made a statement that they do not agree with the wording of the report regarding the cause of the damage found on the turbo, in fact Sonex has formally objected against the report.

Bullied is exactly correct ... and no moderator bothered to step in and stop it either. Shame on them. I was flatly accused of "accusing Joe of incompetence", accusing Joe of "covering up the truth", of being "dead set on twisiting the NTSB report", being an "arm chair mechanic", and trolling the site. Did I get a little impassioned and over zealous towards Joe? Yes I'm afraid I did and for that I here offer him a public and sincere apology. Joe Norris is one of the good guys. But I never attacked him, his character, or his ethics. What I told him was:

I am thankful for your efforts in providing information to us. No ... I would never say, and in no way suspect, that the company is hiding anything from their customers. I have always believed that they have sought to run that business with a lot of integrity and ethics ... even if I disagree with some of the approaches they make.

But I also asked

It cannot be that the entire NTSB team agrees that the turbo would not turn and state that in their report while you continue to claim otherwise. Did you as part of the "fact finding team" discuss your disagreement with the NTSB over your differences of the facts?

Michael is correct that I asked a question no one else was either brave enough to ask or smart enough to ask. It was right there in the NTSB report and there are other people on other sites that are seeing this and believing it. There was (and still is) a discrepency and the truth needs to be known. If I had not had asked the question and been so zealous for an answer no one here would know what you now know. You're welcome!

I was quite relieved to see Joe post the following:

I do not agree with the NTSB's choice of words regarding the description of what we found during the initial investigation. I was allowed to see a "draft" copy of the factual report before it was published, and I offered alternate wording that was more in line with what I personally found during the investigation.

That's a HUGE revelation! The fact that he had pushed back against what he seen as incorrect and needing to be changed. But he went even further and said;

I am not directly involved anymore, but I would hope that Sonex is pursuing some sort of correction to this, as I feel that the NTSB reports are not completely correct.

Again we all owe thanks to him for not letting this rest. But again ... you would not know that had I not been "pushy" ... but the pioneers usually get the arrows.

Then we get an absolute bombshell of good news from Mark:

On the morning of January 12, 2016, immediately after reading the final report issued at midnight on January 11th, I sent the following message to Jason Aguilera, Investigator In Charge (IIC) for this investigation

Thank you Mark, Joe, and Michael! I'm done here but wanted to send this epilogue on this subject. Sad to note that this site has so many that are not capable of engaging in an adult conversation with out acting like children with false accusations and name calling. Shame on you ... and you know who you are. I have lost a great deal of respect for a few here that I once held in high regard. Not because we disagree as adults can sometimes do that ... but because I like maturity in people.

It seems to me that considering this new information coming from Sonex the cause of the disagreement between Joe & Dale was very understandable, you can see both points of view if you just think about it objectively for more than a few seconds.

Excellent point. See if it happens. I will admit to getting some PM traffic on this which included a lot of support. I knew that my comments would get a bit of a rise but I didn't believe that I would be attacked for simply asking what appears to be a very valid question.

Dale however did not deserve the treatment he got from other forum members just for challenging what he was reading in this thread vs. what he had read in the report, and I think some of us owe him an apology.

Thanks Michael ...

Dale Williams
N319WF @ 6J2
Myunn - "daughter of Cleanex"
120 HP - 3.0 Corvair
Tail Wheel - Center Stick
Signature Finish 2200 Paint Job
137.0 hours / Status - Flying

[Fastcapy]

I do know Joe personally. He is a good guy and knows his stuff. Him leaving is a huge loss for the factory but also for all of us in the Sonex community.

I agree that he has taken some heat on here about it. However I think that is because he was representing Sonex in official capacity and they were not personal attacks against him. Sometimes that is what happens to the messenger, especially when people are this emotional about a topic and want answers.

As for the feeling that Sonex is hiding something, I think a lot of it stems from the whole turbo fiasco. Many people are still not happy with how Sonex handled the issues with the turbos. Many people feel that the factory didn't do enough testing on them and also feel Sonex tried to sweep the issues people were having with their turbos under the rug. They do have a history of saying an common issues are the builders fault, and I think people are starting to grow weary of it. Then when 2 factory planes go down, the "gold standard" of the Aerovee builds, people tend to get a little antsy and feel like if the factory can't get it right then there is more than builder error going on and that Sonex isn't being forthright with what is actually going on with these motors. After all since it is their product they should know what the issue is, if not they should be relentlessly working to figure it out without angry customers breathing down their necks to get them to admit to a problem like was the case with the turbo.