service bulitin

[WaiexN143NM]

Hi all,
Mr. Terry Sonex1508, oh how wrong you are, IMHO.....

- surely the best place to test a new engine concept is in the test cell, agreed. On the sonex website before and after jeremey's accident, they claimed a 25 hour test cell period on the turbo, then bolted on said aircraft which joe flew to sun and fun 2 years ago. Ok your'e welcome to purchase a product that has 25 hours of test cell time, not for me. Maybe if it had 225 hours.
I'm sure Mr. Beck is very well aware of the flying activity out of oshkosh he's based there. Also please do not tell people not to post. He has every right as you do to post. Thats the moderators job. If he's telling the truth , then we want to hear it. If you dont like his posts , dont read them. He's posting because he's interested in safety. At the least you owe him an apology. Immature snarky comments about his employment with sonex are not welcome here.
Look here's the stark facts. The factory has had 2 airframes wrecked. 2 fatals, 2 injured. Every builder, owner, pilot of these aircraft have every right to be concerned and want answers. Do i feel for sonex? You bet. Do i want sonex to grow, survive, come out with new products? You bet. There is many posts on this forum about quality of aerovee engines and parts. Where are these parts coming from? China? Mexico? Brazil? Any metalurgy? Any good inspection of these parts before sent out to builders?
Sonex has a mess on their hands. The only option is to be honest, open , and transparent.
Many people want answers. Many people may wait to fly their aircraft. Good luck to sonex to find a cure.
Mr. Terry, you dont post much info about yourself. Are u building? A plans holder? Flying? What type engine? A pilot? Location? Do u have a last name?
Thank you for your service to the EAA and airventure.
WaiexN143NM
Michael Radtke
Flying, SMEL
Jab3300
Dynon glass and autopilot
Rotec tbi
Retired FAA
EAA Lifetime, AOPA, NATCA
San Francisco, Ca. & Tucson AZ.

[dbdevkc]

In my opinion the worst case news will be a "undetermined cause" for a loss of power. I am really hoping for something identifiable - even if it is bad news for all AV's flying, (not that I think any of these are an actual cause) be it a prop hub failure, crankshaft failure, fuel issue, etc. At least something can be done/examined/evaluated.

I am still a while away from needing the make the decision on a powerplant (although I had been planning on the turbo AV), so I am beginning to evaluate the positives and negatives of alternative choices. But I am really rooting that they find something...

[NWade]

Mr. Terry, you dont post much info about yourself. Are u building? A plans holder? Flying? What type engine? A pilot? Location? Do u have a last name?

All - Just a friendly point of consideration: We gain nothing by sniping at each other; so let's not go off on suspicions and theories - whether it be about parts or people - without solid evidence. Keeping focused on solutions and what is truly known will ensure that Sonexbuilders.net remains a positive, informative, and successful place. Lord knows the internet has enough angry/unhappy/conspiracy-theory sites out there already. 8-)

On the subject of the engine failures: I agree with a couple of the previous comments - it is really tricky to diagnose a root cause for some of the issues that folks have experienced, because these are kit-built engines. Just as there is a range of skills and precision in kit airframe construction, so too will there be a range with engine construction. Anytime there's a problem or failure, one has to try to examine whether it was the part itself or the way in which it was installed/operated, that caused the problem. Fine parts can be wrecked be poor installation, and vice versa!

Hopefully we'll get info and clarity over time; but the good news is that we haven't seen a huge % of the engines failing and causing accidents or fatalities. As someone that deals with technology and failure-rates on things like large data-sets, its incredible how even a 99%+ success rate means a noticable number of failures; that affects how you approach problems and should drive you to better results over time, but it doesn't invalidate the high success-rate itself.

--Noel Wade
Sonex #1339 and online denizen since 1986...

[wlarson861]

An update on my turbo: I spoke with Mark Schaible today and was told they are fairly confident that the VR-1 oil in the turbo is the main issue. But all the failures (so far) have been tail wheel planes. He said they will be covering my repair costs at no charge. He said most of the testing was done in the test cell where the turbo sat level which is probably why they didn't find a failure. He did say they are continuing to investigate possible causes and preventative measures. Sonex has a vested interest in fixing this engine , especially now that the B-Model gives a lot of other choices for engines. A serious loss of reputation for the AeroVee and AeroVee Turbo would turn them into an air frame only company. I think Mark is trying to be responsive to the builders and is willing to fix problems as they come up. He and Kerry took care of me when I had problems with new heads that were defective. I have had my faith in Sonex renewed and will continue to sing the praises of this great air frame (and reserved praise)for the AeroVee. This chapter is far from closed but I think I see a faint glow at the end of the tunnel.

blue skies...eventually.

[SNX1508]

Mr. Terry, you dont post much info about yourself. Are u building? A plans holder? Flying? What type engine? A pilot? Location? Do u have a last name?

I currently fly a Pegasus PPC (when the weather is good and work does not get in the way). I have just completed building Sonex #1508, started in May 2011, Taildragger, AeroVee S/N 0736. I plan to upgrade to the turbo in the future. Currently working on getting things in order for the airworthiness inspection. My builder's log can be seen at:

http://www.mykitlog.com/SNX1508

My first AeroVee engine run can be seen here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9wP77I ... e=youtu.be

I live in Burlington, WI, Sonex #1508 is located at the East Troy, WI Municipal Airport (57C).

Terry L Cooper

[Brett]

It's good to hear your being looked after Bill in this issue,

Just off topic I have had probably not had the most success around in both my 2 x Aerovee's. Some due to my fault and others not, but one thing I can say is that Sonex have always looked after me in regard to issues with the airframe and engines so I can't see anything changing in the future,, any missing parts from my airframe I've just finished building were sent basically no questions asked and engine issues have been equally addressed. Mark was a great person to deal with for any drama I had. When I set my turbo up I naturally just set it without thinking to point the oil drain straight down so I was lucky in this regard. It's hard to buy that VR-1 grade of oil in Australia so I was lucky on both fronts as I haven't used that type either. If a detailed bulletin does come out in the near future though I just hope it has extra detail on heat shielding and heat soak protection of parts in the enclosed engine cowling. Until I made extra shields and added extra insulation here and there my engine mounts and trigger modules suffered horrendously. Since the shielding and so on,,,,, problems solved, I hope :)

-Brett

[vwglenn]

As I recall, when testing the engines for the 777, the engine team tried to argue (because of all the computer modeling and such) that they didn't need to mount the thing on a 747 test airframe and they wanted to mount it straight to the 777. On one of the first 747 takeoffs the thing almost grenaded itself proving that actual flight testing is still a good thing. Could you imagine what would've happened to Boeing if their first 777 went into the weeds because they didn't test properly? It's in a companies best interest to turn out a good product but you have to have to stop testing and get it out at some point.

Sonex did test fly the turbo and there is no doubt that they flew the test platform quite a bit. If they had issues, how were they to know that is wan't simply a defective part or a more chronic issue? They might not know unless they went through several iterations and run into the problem on multiple occasions. Please remember the undetermined engine failures in Sonex aircraft are not relegated to Aerovee engines or turbo powered aircraft. They are just a prevalent in the Jabs as well who presumably have done a bunch more research and presumably have better quality control and traceability. Unfortunately for us, the FAA and NTSB rarely put the full effort into investigating experimental aircraft accidents. Half the time they don't even bother to list what kind of engine was installed in the aircraft in their synopsis.

I think some of you guys need to take a step back and realize that you own an experimental aircraft and understand that YOU are the builder/operator and assume the majority of the responsibility. We're lucky to live in an era where the hard work has been done for us and we have fast communication to get the word out about issues. I'm particularly thankful for that when I see some of the stuff at the EAA museum. Those guys had such big balls that I'm amazed their crotch alone didn't exceed max gross in any aircraft they built. There's a three cylinder radial in one of the barns over there where you had to order the plans and cast the damn thing yourself!

The service bulletin is proof that Sonex has noticed a trend which probably may not have been noticed unless they built a fleet of turbo powered airframes. Based on some of the things I've seen in this thread, it also appears they're trying to do the right thing by their customers as well. Like it or not, we are the test pilots for Sonex, Cirrus, Cessna, Piper or any other plane we choose to fly. Even the Cessna 172 (the most produced aircraft in history) had issues when they restarted production in the 90s. There will always be unexpected problems. That's why service bulletins and ADs exist.

[markschaible]

Hello SonexBuilders.net

I want to briefly comment on some of the discussions in this thread:

1. To clarify slightly Bill Larson’s account of my conversation with him yesterday: We have a strong suspicion that the oil specification and the turbo clocking are factors, but we are not focused solely on those factors as the only issue. Among other things, we are investigating the turbo’s ability to shed heat efficiently, especially during the post shut-down heat soak period.

2. In all of our communications on this current service bulletin for the AeroVee Turbo, we can only give facts, and recommend precautionary measures for the fleet. Although we have been communicating closely with customers who are experiencing this problem, we cannot speculatively comment on possible causes or solutions that we are investigating until we have tested and verified them. This will be a long-term process. We have already issued recommendations to mitigate risk in the immediate term. We will continue to issue such recommendations as they are deemed necessary and their impact has been studied, but only hours of running will give us the long-term answer that the issue is solved. It is our intent to move those test efforts forward as quickly as possible in the coming weeks and months.

3. In the case of the two factory accidents, we were made “a party to the investigation” by the NTSB and are therefore prohibited from discussing any details of the accident or investigation until a final report is released. As such, we can’t comment on any of the speculation taking place in the builder community. Know this: Any flight safety issues discovered during an investigation that warrants a service bulletin or other preventative actions would be released by Sonex Aircraft immediately upon discovery, and is not hampered by our party status. That’s about all we can say short of trying to discourage rampant speculation. Unfortunately, we are not in control of the pace of NTSB investigations, and the NTSB has limitations with regard to budget and personnel resources that often protract investigative efforts.

We appreciate the continued support of our customers, friends and families during this most-difficult 15.5 month period since June 2, 2015. I can tell you that everyone here at Sonex Aircraft is focused on making our worldwide fleet as safe as possible.

Best Regards to All,
--
Mark Schaible
General Manager
Sonex Aircraft, LLC
phone: 920-231-8297
fax: 920-426-8333
http://www.SonexAircraft.com
http://www.AeroConversions.com

Sales Info: sales@sonexaircraft.com
Orders: orders@sonexaircraft.com
Accounting: accounting@sonexaircraft.com
Tech Support: tech@sonexaircraft.com

Build a Sonex Aircraft in Your School!
Check out the Sonex Education Initiative: http://education.sonexaircraft.com/

[jjbardell]

I've been quiet about this whole turbo thing but thought it was time to share just a few of my personal observations.

1) As a tri-gear turbo (70 hrs), I am still makes gobs of power (40" at ~80% power). I followed the SB and changed to Brad Penn. I am optimistic the oil change, my tri-gear and any forthcoming SB's will keep my turbo running strong
2) With a split cowl, I am taking additional precautionary measures and removing my upper cowl upon landing to help cool the engine compartment
3) I also spent a good 30 min talking to Mark recently and want to say:

Mark, you are such a classy guy. Through all the ups and downs, you have always treated the Sonex community and me with such respect and honesty. You maintain a positive attitude, humble disposition, listen to us and are always a pleasure to talk to. Thank you for all you do!

[markschaible]

Hello SonexBuilders.net,

We have made a revision to the September 16th AeroVee Turbo Coking service bulletin, adding mandatory item numbers 5 and 6, the use of an additional spin-on oil filter and trimming of the oil drain fitting to be flush with the oil drain plate’s interior face. You can find the original service bulletin and today’s Revision A, detailing a recommended remote oil filter mount and installation considerations, on our web site at: http://www.aeroconversions.com/support/aerovee_sb.html

An update of the project as it stands today:
So far, there have been 2 customers affected who have contacted Sonex Aircraft with non-functioning turbochargers. Additionally, the turbocharger from Waiex-B prototype, “Red One” has been affected.

All turbos inspected have had the same issues:

- The “piston ring” type seal at the turbine “hot” side of the turbo was seized, which is what has caused the turbo to stop spinning. This seizure is due to coked oil deposits in the turbo shaft’s groove for that seal.

- The turbo shaft is discolored from excessive heat.

- There is significant scoring in the bearings from metal particles. Although the damaged journal bearings did not cause the seizure of the turbos examined, it would likely cause problems later.

All returned turbos have been able to be rebuilt to factory-new specification by our turbo vendor.

Our efforts are currently focusing in the following areas:

- Change of the oil to Brad Penn Grade 1 and the investigation of other oil choices, as noted in our service bulletin.

- Clocking of the turbo per the aircraft’s gear configuration, as noted in our service bulletin.

- Better oil filtration per today's service bulletin Revision A.

- Trimming of the Turbo Oil Drain Plate Fitting per today’s service bulletin Revision A.

- Better heat management: We have run cool-down tests with temperature probes on the turbo’s turbine housing and bearing block, and a sensor for ambient temperature inside the cowl. We are now test flying a stainless steel heat shroud to replace the turbo blanket, and the early results are promising. Reductions in peak Turbine Housing/Bearing Block temperatures of approximately 115/45 degrees respectively have been observed, and we are investigating ways to reduce temperature further.

- We are beginning to experiment with vents at the top of the cowling to reduce ambient cowl temps as-well.

- Cool down run tests at various times and power settings have also been studied, and it has been determined that cool down runs at higher rpm (approximately 1500 rpm) to keep more oil flowing through the turbo are NOT effective. Cool down runs should be conducted at-idle per the original service bulletin.

- A new Turbo Oil Drain Sump design is in the works to replace the ACV-T05-46 Oil Drain Plate, and will be available soon.

We will continue to keep you updated as testing progresses. If you have questions about this data, or are experiencing trouble with your AeroVee Turbo, please contact tech@aeroconversions.com

Regards,
--
Mark Schaible
General Manager
Sonex Aircraft, LLC
phone: 920-231-8297
fax: 920-426-8333
http://www.SonexAircraft.com
http://www.AeroConversions.com

Sales Info: sales@sonexaircraft.com
Orders: orders@sonexaircraft.com
Accounting: accounting@sonexaircraft.com
Tech Support: tech@sonexaircraft.com

Build a Sonex Aircraft in Your School!
Check out the Sonex Education Initiative: http://education.sonexaircraft.com/