What am I missing?

[SonexN76ET]

When I was doing my research on what aircraft to build the RV12 came to over $80,000. Make sure you include the cost of propellers, firewall forward packages, finishing kits, etc. Do a complete analysis and the Sonex is less than half that price fully equipped. Ask some RV12 builders how much their build cost.

[fastj22]

I really doubt you could build an RV-12 for under $40k. Definitely E-LSA. More like $60k. E/AB, maybe if you use a automotive engine and min instruments.
The RV12 is a really nice plane. But its not a Sonex. An analogy would a fully dressed Harley vs. a Suzuki Dual Sport.

[rizzz]

When I was doing my research on what aircraft to build the RV12 came to over $80,000.

That also seems to be what they are selling for second hand on Barnstormers etc. If it's anything like the Sonex, this is about 10-15% below what it costs to build one.

Isn't it funny how ALL these companies seem to publish total build cost that is so much below what it actually costs a mere mortal like us to build one.
(Vans publishes the RV-12 total build cost at $66K+: https://www.vansaircraft.com/public/kit-prices.htm)

To get accurate numbers you need to do your own research that's for sure, and you need help from someone who has already built an airplane as you won't be aware of even half of the "hidden" costs.

[johnr9q@yahoo.com]

Van's says the price of $66 includes everything except paint and fluids. So If there are a lot more "hidden costs" name them please?

[SonexN76ET]

Johnr9q, for the full cost of building an RV12, you should ask the Van's builders groups. In the mean time, I will try to find the cost comparison spreadsheet I worked up a few years ago when deciding on a kit.

What you need to realize though is that these are two different airplanes. The RV12 is larger and non aerobatic. Like all Van's products, it is a great aircraft and I am in no way knocking it. One day I would like to own an RV8, but those have steadily gotten out of my price range.

Jake

[JT1974]

A guy in the hangar behind me built a gorgeous RV-12 E-LSA. His plane was built exactly to the Vans E-LSA specs and he added a 2-axis autopilot and had it professionally painted. He has close to $90,000 in the airplane.

[radfordc]

Van's says the price of $66 includes everything except paint and fluids. So If there are a lot more "hidden costs" name them please?

You began this thread with the assertion that the RV-12 was "not that much more expensive" than a Sonex. If $66K is correct then the RV-12 is really on the order of $30-35K more expensive than a Sonex...correct? In other words you can have two Sonex's for the price of one RV-12.

[NWade]

I have an RV-9 kit (bought from a friend who developed cancer) that I'll be finishing once I have my Sonex flying and ready to sell/move-up. So I can speak to this a bit...

First, the simplest way to prove that the RV-12 is more expensive is to look at the engine cost. Compare a Rotax (and all the necessary FWF bits) to an Aerovee/AV Turbo and right there you have a cost difference of at least $20k.

--Noel

[rizzz]

Van's says the price of $66 includes everything except paint and fluids. So If there are a lot more "hidden costs" name them please?

John,
I did that in my previous post, here's what I wrote:

...
Thirdly, building an aircraft will ALWAYS end up costing you more money than the manufacturer claims (it will also weigh more and take more time to build than whatever they say :-)).
For example: in the numbers they state they assume the absolute minimum in instrumentation, engine, etc.; they don’t add shipping costs (a major factor for some of us); they don’t take into account the parts you WILL stuff up and buy replacements for; they generally don’t include things like electrical wire, terminals, connectors fuses etc., nor do they include fuel/oil system accessories such as hoses, fittings, ….; they don’t include products such a primers, sealers, paint, adhesives, sandpaper, …; they don’t include all the tools you will need to buy; they will usually include the minimum hardware required but not all the extras you’ll end up needing; (the list goes on and on and on and all this adds up to thousands of dollars easily).
Anyway, the total building cost these companies state are very, very, optimistic and they conveniently ‘forget’ to include items you as a potential new customer would not immediately think of either when doing your sums.
...

Look at the previous page in this thread to see the full post.

[markschaible]

Hello SonexBuilders.net!

I’ve been watching this thread for the past week, and would like to add/summarize some key points to the discussion, some of which have already been made by other posts.

When you are talking about a complete, fully developed and supported airframe and engine package, we know the Sonex line of aircraft has a cost advantage of tens of thousands of dollars vs. the competing kits discussed in this thread (and several others), hands down.

When it comes to making comparisons, it’s all-too difficult to estimate building costs when looking at the web sites and literature of various kit manufacturers. That’s why some people tend to add-up order form totals and think you can complete an RV-12 for $60K when the realistic completion cost trends closer to $80-100K for most builders. We found this to be the case across the entire industry years ago, and it’s still true today. That’s why we came-up with our Cost Worksheet long ago to make project estimation easier: http://www.sonexaircraft.com/kits/prici ... pletecosts

Our Cost Worksheet shows minimum costs to get the airplane flying, and the footnotes & links help you calculate areas in-which you may want to upgrade your build so that you can write your own estimate to some reasonable degree of accuracy. You can even substitute items we specify with products from other vendors that we don’t list, such as other avionics suppliers. When you are looking at competing kits, it’s important to consider all of the same general line item categories shown in our worksheet: Kit, Engine, Instruments, Prop, Upholstery, Misc. Hardware, FWF accessories, etc.

You also have to consider other costs that we don’t list in the worksheet because they vary so greatly between builders: shipping (everything from pick-up at the factory to shipping overseas), tools (depends upon how many tools you already own, but in-general Sonex tool requirements/costs are much lower), and finishing materials (everything from a jar of Nuvite polish to DIY paint job with a can of Krylon, to contracting professional paint work). Some of the other items that other posters have stated are often omitted such as hoses, fittings, etc. are actually included in our cost estimates, according the materials lists in our FWF installation guides.

Bottom line: the Cost Worksheet is a tool, and the quality (accuracy) of the results are going to depend upon how much care you have put-in to using the tool properly. Like any major project, building your own airplane is going to entail unforeseen costs, but those costs are just too variable between builders for us to accurately estimate them for you. Our contention is that you CAN get close to our estimates if you truly keep the project simple as we have with so many of our factory prototypes, and that our Cost Worksheet is far-more accurate than any other method of estimation offered by our competitors.

Can cost savings be realized with competing kits if making alternative engine installations or by scratch building? Of course, but you then have to compare those reduced costs with the reduced costs of scratch building the Sonex, in which case we still come out on-top. Also consider the large amount of extra work (“sweat equity”) required to scratch build, and the large amount of extra head scratching involved with alternative engine installations (a different kind of “scratch” build). By the way, when I say “alternative engine installations,” I mean installations alternative to the FWF packages developed, tested and supported for the airframe. I’m not speaking of the oft-debated definitions of “alternative” vs. “aircraft” engines which is a separate study in semantics altogether!

I was also very glad to see some folks in this thread talking about the performance advantages of the aircraft — as that’s what Sonex Aircraft were all designed to offer: aerobatic capability with a very-wide structural safety margin, outstanding and fun handling qualities, and above average performance per unit of horsepower. Combine those attributes with building costs, and you get our company slogan: “The Best Performance Per Dollar.” That’s the niche we serve.

As Jeremy Monnett always likes to say, however, it’s “horses for courses,” meaning in this context that you have to consider your ideal flight mission when choosing an aircraft, so that must factor-in for you as a completely separate consideration from cost. There are other aircraft in the kit market that have strengths in other areas, for different flying missions.

Happy shopping!

Regards,
-Mark
--
Mark Schaible
General Manager
Sonex Aircraft, LLC
phone: 920-231-8297
fax: 920-426-8333
http://www.SonexAircraft.com
http://www.AeroConversions.com

Sales Info: sales@sonexaircraft.com
Orders: orders@sonexaircraft.com
Accounting: accounting@sonexaircraft.com
Tech Support: tech@sonexaircraft.com

Build a Sonex Aircraft in Your School!
Check out the Sonex Education Initiative: http://education.sonexaircraft.com/