New FAA Changes to E-AB Transition Training Possible

[rizzz]

Forwarded by request -

I saw your note on the Sonex Foundation Forum. I read it sometimes, the discussion and quality of content are much higher than most homebuilt discussion groups. In reading today I saw a post from someone named "ihab" who said he was part of ZBAG. Being a Zenith builder and flyer for more than 10 years I wanted to alert Sonex people to the history of ZBAG.

They emerged during the investigations of Zenith 601XL accidents. They took donations to fund their own investigation. The origins may have been from concerned builders, but the secret membership list allowed ZBAG to quickly also become a vehicle for disgruntled builders, Zenith competitors and ambulance chasers to attack Zenith. When the first engineer they hired came back and said there was nothing seriously wrong with the design, They let him go and found another. They had a conclusion they wanted, and were only looking for 'evidence' that supported it. ZBAG supported a tremendous amount of speculation that proved to be worthless. They didn't hurt Zenith, but they did successful scare off countless homebuilders from finishing and flying their plane. In my book, alerting builders with facts is the right thing to do, scaring anyone with speculation has no place in aviation.

I can not speak to Mr. "ihab"'s motivation, but doing something like collecting type accident statistics while not having any personal experience in the design, (evaluating stalls by one video) and offering to fund investigations into 'improvements' does not bode well. His comment "It should not be necessary for more people to die" Is the exact type of comment that lawyers fishing for an angle make. I am always alert for the motivation of anyone who falsely suggests mechanical failure or design are bigger culprits than judgment errors of pilots. You can't get rich suing dead pilots, but you can get money by going after companies and designers. Take a minute to read this:http://flycorvair.net/2013/01/28/expert-witnesses-in-civil-aviation-trials/

Lest anyone think I am against frank discussion, I have an entire section of our webpage for Risk Management http://flycorvair.net/2014/01/21/risk-m ... ence-page/ . The stories are about real people I knew, and what we can learn from loosing them. The commentary isn't generalized speculation, I earned a bachelor's degree in accident investigation from Embry-Riddle 20 years ago.

If Zenith had been the hazard to builders that Mr."Ihab" suggests, they would have been sued out of existence in the last decade. Yet they are still here and going strong. After all the speculation was done, the issue came down to this 85% of their pilot pool could not identify the Va speed of the plane as 105mph, even though it was printed on the front page of the plans, and typical second owner/ gross judgment error issues. In the end they installed a very stout mod that essentially drove the Va higher than potential cruise. Look at this story for comments on the human factor issue: http://flycorvair.com/601paper.html

William Wynne

Even though I agree with everything William Wynne has to say here, one other fact needs to be put out there as well:

Whether it was the design itself of the 601XL that was the problem as some claim, or builders/pilots failing to understand/respect its limitations, or a bit of both;
after Zentith issued those mandatory modifications I don't believe there have been any more similar accidents happen.

To put it a bit more blunt: Zenith was able to mitigate "the" problem even though perhaps it was never "their" problem.

[andrewp]

I feel like I am possibly feeding the trolls here and others have already replied to this but I am reading all of this and getting cross:

1. I am a low hour pilot and the Sonex is a wonderful flying platform. Easiest tailwheel aircraft ever. Most forgiving on landing. Most fun I have had in an airplane.
2. Anyone thinks that a Sonex has anything other than pleasant stalling characteristics has clearly never flown one and or hasn't even done a forceful stall in a 152.

In respect to Ihab, I don't mean to call you out here, but if you have concerns go and get a ride with someone, if you haven't already. Go visit Joe Norris up in Oshkosh - time well spent and money well spent - and get checked out in one. Go stall the daylights out of it. Come back and tell us what you think. I have never owned a Zenith or even flown in one. I have no opinion on one. But I know one thing: A Sonex ain't no Zenith.

Now if you did get an airplane to give you a wing drop (Hello any Cessna, how are you out there), if you can't deal with that, BTW, me thinks you need some more training.

I sounds grumpy don't I. Baah, you can all go get off my lawn apparently.

AP

[ihab]

1. I am a low hour pilot and the Sonex is a wonderful flying platform. Easiest tailwheel aircraft ever. Most forgiving on landing. Most fun I have had in an airplane.

Ok thanks, that's actually good to know.

2. Anyone thinks that a Sonex has anything other than pleasant stalling characteristics has clearly never flown one and or hasn't even done a forceful stall in a 152.

Certainly guilty as charged regarding the first point.

In respect to Ihab, I don't mean to call you out here, but if you have concerns go and get a ride with someone, if you haven't already. Go visit Joe Norris up in Oshkosh - time well spent and money well spent - and get checked out in one. Go stall the daylights out of it. Come back and tell us what you think.

I certainly would love to do that. So far I have tried to arrange such trips and failed. But I will resolve to keep my mouth shut till I do.

Now if you did get an airplane to give you a wing drop (Hello any Cessna, how are you out there), if you can't deal with that, BTW, me thinks you need some more training.

To be fair, (a) this was N6334M which is known to be out of rig (I currently fly N162HG); (b) that was right at the start of my training so I certainly needed more; and (c) I still need more....

Ihab

[SonexN76ET]

Here is a video I did of Sonex stalls in my aircraft. The first two are power off stalls. The third, I recover from a power on departure stall at the first sign of a buffet somewhere between 40 and 50 mph. This is only my twelth flight so I am still working up to full on departure stalls (plus I have never been comfortable doing these in any airplane do to the high climb angle).

As you can see from the video, these are all very gentle.

http://youtu.be/5QhyLTeQ1L8

[MichaelFarley56]

Great video Jake!

From what I can see, mine stalls in a very similar fashion at very similar indicated airspeeds. I know that, when I have flaps extended, I don't get the stall burble until I'm in the mid to upper 30's indicated!

By the way, how's your engine running? Are you happy with balanced temps at this point? The plane sure looks beautiful!

[DCASonex]

As someone who initially started building a Zenith CH650 (an updated 601XL) only to learn of problems after tail and a wing were completed, I joined ZBAG and followed that closely. As an engineer, but one with zero aeronautical experience, I spent quite a while looking into the situation and concluded that there was a real problem mostly concerning the lack of support on the attachment of the aileron bell crank inside the wing. Zenith's initial response denying ANY problems put me off enough that I mothballed mine and built a Sonex (one of my better choices in life) and stopped participating in the ZBAG group at that point. Zenith did finally include strengthening this as part of their update package, but their initial response of a requirement to tighten the cables, to me seemed only increased the risk of failure of this part. Told Zenith of my findings and reasons behind them, was ignored. Sold the kit (at big loss) when update package was finally released. There seemed to be some very knowledgeable people working with ZBAG, and it is unfortunate that lawyers hijacked that, but not sure what Zenith's response would have been, or how much longer it would have been delayed if it were not for for the ZBAG group.

David A.

[ihab]

Here is a video I did of Sonex stalls in my aircraft. ... http://youtu.be/5QhyLTeQ1L8

Wow David. Thank you very much for recording and publishing the video. I loved it! Yes, I agree that seems pretty un-eventful. Far less so than me practicing stalls in my lowly C162 "Flycatcher". :)

Clearly you're an experienced pilot and expecting a stall, and you do keep the ball centered as you say, so perhaps one additional question is how a Sonex compares to other aircraft when carelessly stalled. But on the other hand, a stall on short final with the engine out is very bad in all aircraft, regardless of "characteristics", so maybe the emphasis should be to avoid them in the first place, via training?

In other news: Awesome panel arrangement and very swanky instrument choices, and what beautiful visibility. Look what you've done: I want a Sonex even more badly than before!

Ihab

[tonyr]

Ihab,

Given all the years you have been on the Yahoo groups and now here..
lest you be labelled a permanent tire kicker perhaps you need to decide once and for all?

Regards
Tony

[MichaelFarley56]

Nothing like some peer pressure Ihab!

Come on, join us! :mrgreen:

[ihab]

Tony and Michael,

Given all the years you have been on the Yahoo groups and now here..
lest you be labelled a permanent tire kicker perhaps you need to decide once and for all?

Nothing like some peer pressure Ihab!
Come on, join us!

I will be showing your messages to my spouse ASAP. Your checks are in the mail. Thank you. };->

Seriously -- I am working on my Sport Pilot license right now (the FAA would give me a Class 3 but it would be an expensive slog). I'll see how I do once I get my license and fly the mighty C162 Flycatcher around. If having a 2-seater works well for our family, then a Sonex, perhaps in partnership with someone else, is definitely my first choice. I'd love it!!

Ihab