Missing Donellon, FL SONEX Flyin Pilot

[fastj22]

Nothing sonex specific. But turning when at stall speeds is a sure way to enter a spin. Even coordinated turns.

[radfordc]

I have practiced turning stalls in a Sonex. The last time I did a BFR I told the instructor that I wanted to do some departure stalls...establish a rate of climb and enter a coordinated turn and pull until the stall occurs. He was more than surprised when the Sonex rolled past wings vertical during the stall. It didn't spin but could have with only a small bit of rudder input.

[ihab]

Thank you! So for what it's worth, this dude doing turning stalls in a C150 --

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7Gowrqs4dc

seems to experience nothing dramatic at all. Now obviously this is a C150 versus a Sonex. But is it possible that the stall/spin accidents we see are from people purchasing a Sonex and expecting it to behave -- well -- like a C150?

Obviously transition training is important, but also, should someone come up with a standard kit or design for inboard vortex generators or an inboard stall strip for the Sonex, for "beginners" or for people who take a sip of Kool-Aid and buy it as a simple, inexpensive little cruising LSA rather than to do actual aerobatics or other fancy maneuvers?

I'm going to ask my instructor to help me try out some turning stalls in the C162 Flycatcher ;) I'm getting my SP license on, and see how they feel on that. This is a constant-chord wing with no apparent washout or anti-stall devices, but clearly a very different design from the Sonex!

Ihab

[fastj22]

I was able to turn a C150 during stalls too. The 150 is pretty docile but will drop a wing if you give it any aileron input. The trick is to balance your turn using only the rudder. Now I doubt in an emergency when trying to extend your glide you will have the presence to do that.
When stalling my Waiex, I notice a tendency to drop a wing and immediate rudder correction will keep it level. But give it some aileron and whoops, she breaks over on her back. BTW, the C150 is a really fun plane to spin. It is very predictable and comes out by just letting go of the yoke. Never needed any rudder input. The Decathalon I did my spin training in wasn't so nice. It just kept wrapping up tighter with each turn. I haven't taken the Waiex through more than two turns but I think it will do about the same.

I don't think the C162 is spin rated and the FAA has taken spin training (demonstration) out of the curriculum of private.

[ihab]

So -- trying to summarize what you (fastj22) said:

• You are pretty experienced with acro and unusual attitudes;
• You have flown both the C150 and your Waiex;
• You observe that your Waiex is, on balance, more sensitive to asymmetry during stalls and will react with more extreme upset;
• You have practiced these scenarios and have the skills and training to handle them with no problem; but
• You predict these upsets would be difficult to correct in an emergency with a stressed, distracted and inadequately trained pilot.

Is this all correct?

If so, it sounds like the Waiex is the ideal aircraft for you and people with similar training and experience, but maybe for casual cruising LSA people, the Sonex/Waiex could do with some minor mods that make it more docile?

Ihab

[ihab]

Also, re spins in the C162: You are completely correct that it is not certified for intentional spins. If a turning stall is tantamount to an intention to spin, then I guess we will not be doing that.

Ihab

[fastj22]

I think you are misunderstanding me. All I'm saying is that if you try to change course when near or at stall speeds, you are risking a spin. If on takeoff and only a few hundred feet AGL and you lose you engine, if you try to turn back you probably won't make it. You need to keep flying the plane at Vy, keeping it above stall speed and making the best out of a bad situation. I think too many high time pilots think they can cheat physics and get the plane back to the runway.

As for training, if you can get spin training, do it. It will teach you how close the edge a stall and a spin are. And how making the mistake of too much control inputs during that time will ruin your day if you are low. Even if your primary training aircraft is a C162, you can hire an instructor in a spin rated plane for training as long as he's PIC. I wish I had taken it earlier.

As for the Sonex, its a fine and docile plane if flown within its envelop. Its stalls very nicely and has no bad habits. But the edge is sharper than a C150 or C172. But not as sharp as a Decathon or RV7. And once you cross it, it gets exciting fast. But it also recovers quickly.

[ihab]

I think you are misunderstanding me.

Sorry....

All I'm saying is that if you try to change course when near or at stall speeds, you are risking a spin.

Gotcha.

I think too many high time pilots think they can cheat physics and get the plane back to the runway.

That surprises me, but then, I can't imagine I'm smarter than they are so I will have to work extra hard not to succumb to the same temptation.

As for training, if you can get spin training, do it.

Wilco.

As for the Sonex, its a fine and docile plane if flown within its envelop. Its stalls very nicely and has no bad habits. But the edge is sharper than a C150 or C172. But not as sharp as a Decathon or RV7. And once you cross it, it gets exciting fast. But it also recovers quickly.

Cool, well, if it's somewhere between a C150 and an RV7 then that sounds reasonable. I just hope people realize what the flying qualities are and fly accordingly, even in an emergency.

Ihab

[DCASonex]

Also, re spins in the C162: You are completely correct that it is not certified for intentional spins. If a turning stall is tantamount to an intention to spin, then I guess we will not be doing that.

Ihab

If memory serves correct (questionable), Cessna lost an early Skycatcher in testing due to lack of spin recovery and modified the tail to help prevent that.

David A.

[andrewp]

I learned to fly in a 152. That thing would drop a wing on most every stall. As far as I am concerned the sonex is better behaved but perhaps I a biased. In fact it is one of the better behaved objects out there IMHO.

If you stall and spin a sonex you would stall and spin practically anything else alas.

AP