Insurance vs FAA requirements

[1AviationNut]

Hey all! Soooooooo... You've heard it thousands of times...... I have been flying general aviation for over 1100hrs. This includes time in ultralight, GA, and light sport aircraft. THAT class has changed a ton! (Light sport, have a lot of time in the entire model list from the SlipStream company that was based at our airport) So, I bought a tricycle gear aerovee Sonex A model to give myself a fun little toy to use without burning 8 gallons an hour, go a little faster and just to have fun! Been from the east coast, Florida, texas and at the foot hills of the mountains to the west from Wisconsin, with my Tripacer, the "Pig". My Dad and I bought it together and although he passed last year he is ALWAYS with me flying and the Pig will never leave. '53 135hp and we painted it and rebuild the wings (thank you Richard Jorgensen at Y50) However!!! I just want to fly more! There was one year that he and my step-mom were at Airventure (they camped in the RV area cuz Dad had to sell the 55 Tripacer he had before I flew, and they started to go south in the winter - yes, she loved camping) and Dad saw a jacket he wanted at the end of the day, they passed on it. Dad kept talking about it that night and my Step Mom said, (Love her!) Lets go back first thing tomorrow and get it. It was gone. Last one, None left. Dad told me this story over and over pretty much every couple weeks the last few years. I have NEVER forgotten this conversation. NEVER. and apply it to almost everything I do. Again, SO....... I used most of my Dad's inheritance to buy and get this thing ready to fly. I have been talking about a little plane for a while, and now I am too fat to get into it with an instructor to fly it to satisfy the requirements. (I'm 210lbs) My useful load is only 411 with the aerovee. NOBODY has an answer for me. The AOPA rep actually told me, "Get a different plane". NOT KIDDING!!! So I'm just seeing what others do in this situation. Any advice what to do or who to go to? At this point my plans are to fly it after getting some training in an RV12 to get a better feal for the stick control. Fly the Sonex for over ten hours. Then re-go the insurance quote request. Its got to be the biggest uneasy thing I've had to decide. I trust myself and want to give myself evey chance for training, thus the RV12, knowing it's not the same plane. Any thoughts or advice would be greatly appreciated!

[Sonex1517]

Hi and welcome to the forum! (It helps if we know your name!)

Just some thoughts here.

Your useful load is with full fuel. It is possible to fly with less fuel for training purposes, so you could get a CFI in with you. Been there and done that.

Your problem is one many face. Some ideas include talking to an insurance company about getting dual in a similar aircraft as you mention. Finding a local Sonex pilot to help you get the required time. Also possibly taking a local Sonex pilot up with you for familiarization.

I didn’t see many specifics in your post about the cost you were quoted or the required time in type. It’s not at all unusual to be told you need 5 or 10 hours and a CFI with time in type.

What airport are you based at? That may help.

Let us know a little more about the specifics.

[Rynoth]

It's funny how insurance works. Myself, with 35 solo hours in my Waiex (And I'm a CFI with 4500+ hours), am still probably uninsurable due to lack of dual received in type. BUT, if I flew with another Sonex owner and gave THEM dual time/instruction, THEY would be insurable.

I'm not suggesting that you or anyone else do this, but I assume my own financial risk and do not insure my plane.

Receiving instruction is, of course, very important, but I think similar aircraft would suffice for a simple aircraft like a Sonex. I trained in a Citabria/Decathlon prior to my first flight in the Sonex, and that was time well spent. The Sonex is easier to fly IMO, though not as easy as typical flight-training aircraft..

[MichaelFarley56]

Welcome to the forums and the Sonex family!

You have a wonderful story. It’s really amazing how emotionally attached we can get to airplanes, and your story with the Tri Pacer is a wonderful example. I grew up in the back of a Cessna Cardinal that my dad and grandfather flew and I wish I had the ability to buy that airplane back as a way of remembering those times.

Your issue with insurance on Sonexes is a common one among the community. While I don’t question the factory’s decision to stop the T-Flight program, it does make things more challenging for the rest of the community. Like most everyone else, you have basically three choices:

- Try to fly a similar make and model that the insurance company will buy off on for a while. Sometimes it’s helpful to use an insurance agent in this case to have someone who can explain the situation and give you a “voice” with the underwriter.

- Fly in a Sonex with an owner who doesn’t have a CFI but is willing to offer you a ride in their airplane so you can count it as time in type. So far, underwriters are still sort of allowing this to count (for now).

-Fly your airplane with no insurance until you have the time you need. Some owners can at least get liability coverage but no hull coverage until they have time in type. Not recommending this, but some rate doing it.

I know it’s a pain but the entire aviation world is suffering with insurance requirements and raising premiums. For what its worth, stick with it: the Sonex is a blast once you are able to fly it! This may be a roadblock but it’s a great airplane to fly!

Best of luck,

Mike

[1AviationNut]

Thanks for the chime in's.
The two quotes I got were as follow,
Starr and Global Air were the companies.
Both want 5 hrs dual with a CFI (where my weight causes the issue) which has been the normal for requirements for other planes I fly for the owners insurance coverage. No surprise, just the weight issue. (Yeah, I've even started to diet!) Then 5 hrs solo. Both are for 25000 hull coverage, ground and flight. Same liability coverages as I have always carried on the Pig, I'd have to look what those are but I feel those are the most important to cover anyone else that may be with or around me.
The difference being one is for me only as pilot after the training at just under 1900.00 and the second allows for any pilot with 25 hrs in type and model and at least 750 hrs in thier logbook at 2480.00. WOWSA! My coverage on the Pig is 630.00! I talked directly to Starr already and they will not accept any substitute aircraft and I never got a return call from either of my messages I left at Global Air.
I am based at Wautoma Municipal Airport (Y50) just west of Oshkosh.
I sure would like to get some time in a sonex first, but I'm not sure that's gonna fly with even low fuel. Maybe there's someone close with a turbo aerovee, rotax or jab3300? Even if it's a taildragger at least I'd know what to expect in the air for handling. I know this, I WILL be in the air with it one way or the other. Just want it to be the safest I can manage.

[GraemeSmith]

I think similar aircraft would suffice for a simple aircraft like a Sonex. I trained in a Citabria/Decathlon prior to my first flight in the Sonex, and that was time well spent.

Don't disagree.

The Sonex "gotcha" for those turning an AeroVee is the left turning prop. Especially if all you have ever flown is right turning props. All muscle memory for the right foot is reversed onto the left foot. And while the power is not enormous and you are not going to torque roll it by applying the wrong foot - as you lift the tail and instinctively apply the wrong foot - you could be headed for a world of hurt. Time in a Tiger Moth or DeHavilland Chipmunk can be helpful with this as their engines also go "the wrong" way!

So with that as prelude. If you are trying to negotiate with insurers on similar types - and you are planning on turning an Aerovee - perhaps getting time on left turning engines and negotiating that point might help.

[Panther16]

I fly a Sonex with a Jab 3300 and a Panther with a 3300 Corvair. The issue is how fast one moves the throttle and how fast one raises the tail. The prop rotation is not the issue. The Sonex is more of a hand full then the Panther if one is aggressive with throttle and elevator. I only have tail wheel time. My original instructor never yelled right rudder, it was always keep it straight.
Keith Rhode
Sonex sn 1009
Panther sn 16

[pappas]

Although experimental aircraft are almost always more expensive to insure than certified, I have never had any problem getting insurance for either of my 2 Sonex aircraft or my RV-8. The RV-8 had lower premiums than the Sonex. I am an EAA member and have always used Falcon Insurance Agency. The most I ever paid for full coverage, (50k hull and 1 Million Liability), has been about $1650 per year back in 2007. Upon renewal a year later, the premium dropped to $1350. I haven't paid more than that for full coverage in any of my Falcon Insurance agency covered aircraft. All of my aircraft have been taildraggers. Tricycle gear Sonex's were quoted at lower premiums than the figures I post here. Falcon placed me with a couple of companies over the years. The most recent has been Global.

I do have a CFI friend that checked me out in my plane for a few hours and I always list him as a covered pilot on my craft. But, it seems to me that Falcon was more concerned with hours in the airplane, or a similar craft, rather than a CFI check. Expect to pay higher premiums the first year you own and fly something. The hours and experience will often result in a lower renewal.

These things fly and land like a C-150. A Champ or Cub is much more demanding upon landing than a tailwheel Sonex.
It took about 5 seconds to adjust to the counter-rotating prop for rudder input. If you can adjust the mixture, push in the throttle, apply stick pressure, speak on a radio, and look out the window at the same time......pushing lightly with your left foot shouldn't be much of an issue.

[Bryan Cotton]

I had always hoped my ample tailwheel time and my helicopter time would serve me well for the Aerovee engine rotation. Is there much torque and P factor in an Aerovee powered Sonex? There is very little in an 85 HP C140.

I don't see going with hull coverage. If I crash it I'll fix it.

[Panther16]

I completed my Sonex in 2010 with the Aerrovee and flew for 80 hours. I was not happy
With 2 up performance. Converted to the Jab 3300. I don’t remember the right turn
Tendency to be much of an issue with areovee. The Jab is a different story if you are
Overly aggressive with throttle and elevator and are not ready for it, it will turn left if
You are behind on the rudder.
Like you I don’t carry hull ins. Only liability. If I have a problem I will fix it.
Keith
Sonex sn1009
Panther sn16