Slowly getting started!

[helifrek]

Hey guys,
I have another post in the introduction board about myself. I posted it years ago and updated it recently, basically I was all gung-ho about getting my ppl and buying a sonex and then life got in the way and that all fell on the backburner for a few years. An update on myself, I am recently out of the military and got a good paying job and have almost started my first flying lessons (weather has been uncooperative). So things have been getting better and I can now make flying and owning my own plane a priority!

My number one concern right now is getting my pilots license and learning as much as I can, basically my short term goal. My bigger long term is to own an aircraft so I can make trips to visit family, the furthest distance is right at 500 miles. I have had my eye on the Sonex for a long time because it seems like the most affordable aircraft that will suit my needs. I plan to buy used, but I wanted some experienced input on which aircraft I will eventually buy so I will list my criteria and thoughts so you guys can pick at them and see where I need to make some exceptions or compromises.

I am 5'10 and weigh 230 (I am working on getting back below 200)
wife is short and around 135-140.
luggage would be two gym bags with clothes and stuff for a long weekend, I can't see it being more than 40lbs total.
I want to be able to fly around 140-150mph (8000 ft is fine if that will make me go faster)
range, I don't mind making a stop or two if I have to fly that 500 miles to see family in ohio. I just don't want to drive 9 hours!
I plan to fly to NC on the weekends as much as I can which is about a 300 mile flight so flying over mountains will be something I would be doing regularly.
Airplane cost I am trying to keep around the $30k range, $35K max if I find something I really like. Operational costs are probably a bigger factor, I know this can vary a lot depending on the engine choice so I am leaning towards an aerovee turbo.

I am trying to buy some land with a large enough flat area so I can have my own runway so I won't have to pay hangar fees but that's further in the future. So far I am thinking a Sonex or Waiex with an aerovee turbo (or just an aerovee and I can buy the kit) that is a tail dragger should fit my needs pretty well.
I would build a B model if I had the time and money but used will be cheaper and faster! I also work with the army in aviation and have tons of friends with their A&P so I don't really have to worry to much about getting the annual inspections I don't think.

Any thoughts or ideas you guys can pitch my way are greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!

Brandon

[fastj22]

If you have the money now, I'd suggest picking up a C150 or an old C172/175 and do your training in it. It'll save you a lot in the long run. When you sell it, you shouldn't lose much. Then after you get your PPL, put another 100 hours on it to make sure this is the hobby for you. All the while, you can think about what to build/buy and what your real mission is. It might be to keep the Cessna for cross country and build a Onex for fun.

[helifrek]

I have been looking at old 150s for sale. I have heard this a bunch of times. my local 150 rents for 90 an hour wet. How many flying hours does it usually take to get a ppl? would I really save that much money? what is the overhaul and annual cost of a 150? I could potentially afford it now but in the long run I think the sonex is what I really want.

I am 110% sure flying is for me, ever since I was a kid jumping on the trampoline flapping leaves like crazy trying to fly, my rc aircraft hobby of 20 years, my 8 year (and growing) career in and around aviation, the only thing I haven't done is actually gotten my ppl and a plane! I don't have kids and my wife and I don't want to have kids, I am 31 and all I have dreamed about my entire life is flying. I came from a dirt poor family with a single mom raising 5 boys and my wife also came from a very poor family. We have both worked our butts off to get to where we are at now! I am ready to achieve my lifelong dream!

[fastj22]

I have been looking at old 150s for sale. I have heard this a bunch of times. my local 150 rents for 90 an hour wet. How many flying hours does it usually take to get a ppl? would I really save that much money? what is the overhaul and annual cost of a 150? I could potentially afford it now but in the long run I think the sonex is what I really want.

I am 110% sure flying is for me, ever since I was a kid jumping on the trampoline flapping leaves like crazy trying to fly, my rc aircraft hobby of 20 years, my 8 year (and growing) career in and around aviation, the only thing I haven't done is actually gotten my ppl and a plane! I don't have kids and my wife and I don't want to have kids, I am 31 and all I have dreamed about my entire life is flying. I came from a dirt poor family with a single mom raising 5 boys and my wife also came from a very poor family. We have both worked our butts off to get to where we are at now! I am ready to achieve my lifelong dream!

Average time for PPL is around 65 hours. If you buy a C150 with a mid time engine, you won't need to ever overhaul it. My annuals were between $500 and $1000. You'll be able to sell it at anytime for what you paid. They won't depreciate anymore unless you prang it or put thousands of hours on it.

So lets do some back of the envelope math.
Renting a C150 for 65 hours will run you $5850.
Buying one will be around $18,000 (including taxes and fresh annual). Tie downs (you won't need to hangar it, it ain't gonna be a gem), lets say $100/month. Insurance probably another $100/month. Fuel at $4/gal, 6 Gal/hour is $1560.

Lets assume it takes you 3 months to get your PPL. Thats $600 + $1560 = $2160. If you sell the C150 after your ticket for what you paid, you've already saved $3600. You keep it and fly another 100 hours in 9 months (thats a lot BTW), thats $9000 to rent, or $4800 to own. Put it in a leaseback program like I did and sometimes the darn things cash flow.

I wish I had gone down this path when I got my PPL.

[samiam]

I have been looking at old 150s for sale. I have heard this a bunch of times. my local 150 rents for 90 an hour wet. How many flying hours does it usually take to get a ppl? would I really save that much money? what is the overhaul and annual cost of a 150? I could potentially afford it now but in the long run I think the sonex is what I really want.

I am 110% sure flying is for me, ever since I was a kid jumping on the trampoline flapping leaves like crazy trying to fly, my rc aircraft hobby of 20 years, my 8 year (and growing) career in and around aviation, the only thing I haven't done is actually gotten my ppl and a plane! I don't have kids and my wife and I don't want to have kids, I am 31 and all I have dreamed about my entire life is flying. I came from a dirt poor family with a single mom raising 5 boys and my wife also came from a very poor family. We have both worked our butts off to get to where we are at now! I am ready to achieve my lifelong dream!

Average time for PPL is around 65 hours. If you buy a C150 with a mid time engine, you won't need to ever overhaul it. My annuals were between $500 and $1000. You'll be able to sell it at anytime for what you paid. They won't depreciate anymore unless you prang it or put thousands of hours on it.

So lets do some back of the envelope math.
Renting a C150 for 65 hours will run you $5850.
Buying one will be around $18,000 (including taxes and fresh annual). Tie downs (you won't need to hangar it, it ain't gonna be a gem), lets say $100/month. Insurance probably another $100/month. Fuel at $4/gal, 6 Gal/hour is $1560.

Lets assume it takes you 3 months to get your PPL. Thats $600 + $1560 = $2160. If you sell the C150 after your ticket for what you paid, you've already saved $3600. You keep it and fly another 100 hours in 9 months (thats a lot BTW), thats $9000 to rent, or $4800 to own. Put it in a leaseback program like I did and sometimes the darn things cash flow.

I wish I had gone down this path when I got my PPL.

This is almost exactly what I did, except I did it with a partner, which lowered the costs even more. I loved that 150, what a great platform for my first 175 flying hours.

One thing that is really tough though is buying an airplane that you can't fly yet. The transaction costs can be very high, so I'd probably limit myself to looking at something locally. Also don't get the cheapest one - it works out more expensive in the long run.

For my costs -
Tie down & insurance $1200/year (I paid half of that)
Maintenance/annuals: $500-1500/year (again, only half; there was one annual that was $3500 for magnetos, but the other guy got the cheapest 150, and it had a lot of deferred maintenance)
Per hour costs - 4-5 gal/hour of gas and a little oil

Was super cheap, I flew it all around and had a blast.

[fastj22]

When I finished up my 100 hours in my C150, I ended up trading it for my Waiex kit. Which was a good thing because it was so much fun to fly, I wouldn't have had much time to work on the kit.

[kmacht]

Those are some pretty optimistic numbers. Getting a PPL in 3 months is pretty rare. The average is closer to a year. Those numbers don't look quite as good then. Assume the gas is the same (65 hours at 6 gallons and $4 a gallon = 1560). Insurance is going to be more around 150 a month for a student pilot owning an airplane ($1800 a year). Tiedown cost varies all over the place but lets assume $100 ($1200 a year). That puts you at $4560. After that year is up even if you decide to sell the plane your buyer is going to want a fresh annual ($1000 minimum just for the inspection and that's assuming you don't find something even minor wrong that needs to be fixed). Suddenly you are at $5500. That's pretty darn close to the rental cost. It is also all assuming that you paid cash for the plane and aren't financing it, doesn't include registration or taxes, that you can find a buyer right when you are ready to sell, etc.

To save those few hundred dollars you are taking on a lot of risk. You are hoping that you don't screw up a landing and damage something (which is not unheard of as a student pilot). It doesn't have to be a full blown accident, even a hard landing that wrinkles the firewall can cost mega bucks. You are hoping that the engine doesn't self combust and you get stuck with a 20k rebuild. That happened to someone over on the purple board. They did just like you are thinking and bought a 150 with a good pre-buy inspection. The second flight in the engine threw a rod and they had to put it down in a field. You are hoping that even minor things don't' go wrong that can cost big bucks (flap drive motor stops working, gyros or other instruments break and need replacing, tire goes flat, etc, etc.). Each time one of those happens you are now not only paying for very expensive certified parts but also $80 to $100 an hour for a mechanic to install them.

If you are planning on buying a 150 and flying it for years then you might be able to make a case for it but if you are just going that route to save money on flight training before going the sonex route there is a lot of risk for only a little bit of reward.

Keith
#554

[kmacht]

Forgot to mention the other advantage or renting. You get an opportunity to try out as many different airplanes as you can find while getting your license. A 150 flies different than a 172 which flies different than a cub which are all different from a Sonex. The best thing you can do before flying your sonex besides getting transition training is to go fly as many different airplanes as you can. Each one will teach you something new and each will hone your skills of how to adapt to a new flying machine. Don't just keep renting the same plane during those 65 hours. Obviously you will spend alot of time in one make/model working on landings but when doing dual cross countries, learning how to track a VOR, night flight, etc, work with your instructor to try out a bunch of different airplanes that may be available on the flightline.

Keith
#554

[fastj22]

Yeah, there's risk, but that's why we fly right? Good points on maybe getting in to partnership to cut ownership costs in half. Keep in mind too that even though you are renting, most FBOs require supplemental insurance, not included in the rental, that will run you a bit.
The one big benefit of renting is you can just walk away.

I got my PPL in 3 months. I was motivated, had already passed the written, had put away enough money to finish it, and had a hungry CFI that would fly anytime. Flew most weekends and had a great window of weather. The only setback was the flying club only had 2 trainers I was checked out in and one was usually down for maintenance.

Working on my commercial right now but that requires a plane much more expensive than I want to own so renting makes sense.

I think if I ever go for my Instrument rating, I'll probably buy a partnership in a friend's C175 thats IFR certified. Heck, already considering it even if I don't, just to have a cross country station wagon.

[helifrek]

You guys make some really good points. I guess my major concern is huge hidden costs. I have to do more research on the 150's but it might be a good option. It would be nice to have it park at my local airport that is 5min away versus driving 50min to the airport where I am planning on flying. I will talk to my instructor as well, he sounds pretty knowledgeable. He is 61 and has been flying for a very long time, so I am sure he will have some knowledge that a newer CFI may not possess yet.

is there a certain model/year of 150 I should look at? I browsed barnstormers a bit but I just don't have the knowledge to tell what is potentially good or bad.

My wife and I work decent jobs and have no major debts so I think a 150 may fit in our budget just fine. my local airport is $50 a month tiedown fee and an A&P will probably cost me a pack of beer. I work with about 10 A&P guys! I could get mine if I just take the time to do it. Thanks guys!

Brandon