Viking Engine

[TaxMaverick]

178lbs is the dry weight, Jan says in one of his Yahoo posts. "Add one gallon of oil and one gallon of coolant," he says.

Coolant and oil are eight or nine pounds per gallon. Plus the motor mount, cowling, hoses, wires, exhaust (maybe not included), and battery (if with the engine). 224lbs sounds about right to me.

Exaggerating and censoring I also really dislike. "He who is dishonest in little things is dishonest in big things," as the saying goes.

But once again, he is the only one doing a decent job of this. Pioneering an alternative engine would cost any individual more than a Rotax, and would likely be riddled with way more problems than the Viking.

Jan deserves a lot of slack in my opinion because he is the only one doing this -- and taking the heat any small guy would have to take.

People expect big-company business, with years of expensive R&D before a product goes to market, and no-questions-asked refunds. But, no big company is willing to take the potential liability that goes with a new aircraft engine. Only someone like Jan could do this because he is not rich enough to be worth suing -- not unless he really pulls it off with this engine.

- Jan, if you start making money, I recommend blowing it on whiskey and women. Don't buy a nice house. Keep yourself judgement proof.

[TaxMaverick]

- Jan, I forgot: Florida has an unlimited homestead exemption. You are safe buying a house.

[rizzz]

The Searey owner talked about a 224lbs "installed weight". We can off course only guess what he really meant but usually when talking about "installed weight" you do not include oil, fuel, cooling liquid etc. (You most certainly do not include weight of the mount & cowling).
Have a look at this technical spec of the Rotax 912 ULS: http://www.rotaxservice.com/rotax_engin ... 12ULSs.htm
They are very clear about what they mean when they say the "installed weight" is 140.6lbs / 63.8Kg (which is far less than what Jan claims it to be on his website), the table shows the weight of each component that is included in that total "installed weight".

Maybe there is a misunderstanding, this is why I posted a message on his forum asking him to clarify what actually makes the difference between the 178lbs on his website and the 224lbs stated by the Searey owner.
The fact that he does not allow this post to be seen or wants to reply to it in detail makes me suspect there is no misunderstanding, he's just not being totally honest with his numbers.

I agree, the Viking is a great project and could be a very competitive engine compared to what's out there currently, but I'm affraid what the RV guys are saying is absolutely right, "Jan is a very good engineer but a crappy business man".
Very bad business decisions is what brought down his previous project, his Subaru conversion:
http://www.meyette.us/engine.htm#egg

[fastj22]

There was also a call to publish the installed weight of the flying RV12/Viking. Neither Jan or the owner have come forward with the final weight and balance. One would think if it was withing the specs of the Rotax, they would be shouting it.
I think Jan is optimistic at best on the installed weight. Since Jan's published number is so close to the maximum firewall forward of the Sonex design, and his mounts now move the engine even further foreward, tells me its a best case, wait and see.
Its such a beautiful engine. Based on a great core. I really hope this works out for everyone.

[rizzz]

Ok, I have posted one more message asking Jan just to clarify what exactly is included when he says 178lbs.

[TaxMaverick]

"Installed weight" is a term I may be using incorrectly. I assumed fluids, engine mount and so on are included. "The engine has an installed weight of 224lbs," is exactly what the SeaRey owner said to me.

The engine weight question I saw in Jan's Yahoo group. Classic answer: "178 lb [period]." Try listing what you would like included, e.g., fluids, muffler and so on.

Sonex looks like a risky airframe for this engine. I plan to put it in a CH 750, where a little more weight and power than a Rotax would be perfect.

For Sonex, I think you want a light-weight, direct-drive engine.

I read somewhere direct-drive engines are better for cruising. High-RPM, geared engines are good for delivering a lot of torque to get bush planes off the ground.

I plan to build a high-speed cruiser after my bush plane. I would love to use the Viking for both. But from what I have read, you want a direct-drive engine for high-speed cruising. (I could be wrong. I do not have first-hand experience trying both.)

[rizzz]

"Installed weight" is a term I may be using incorrectly. I assumed fluids, engine mount and so on are included. "The engine has an installed weight of 224lbs," is exactly what the SeaRey owner said to me.

The engine weight question I saw in Jan's Yahoo group. Classic answer: "178 lb [period]." Try listing what you would like included, e.g., fluids, muffler and so on.

Sonex looks like a risky airframe for this engine. I plan to put it in a CH 750, where a little more weight and power than a Rotax would be perfect.

For Sonex, I think you want a light-weight, direct-drive engine.

I read somewhere direct-drive engines are better for cruising. High-RPM, geared engines are good for delivering a lot of torque to get bush planes off the ground.

I plan to build a high-speed cruiser after my bush plane. I would love to use the Viking for both. But from what I have read, you want a direct-drive engine for high-speed cruising. (I could be wrong. I do not have first-hand experience trying both.)

Like I said, we can only guess what the Searey builder included when using the term "Installed weight".

My post did make it to the forum this time so lets see what Jan replies, then we can make a fair weight comparison between the rotax & the Viking.

The Viking is probably better for "bush planes" than for hight speed cruizers, however, I thought the RV-12's cruized at a reasonable speed as well and the Viking seems to be suitable for those, or is the Sonex still faster?

[rizzz]

I got a reply!

A complete engine, with its accessories, is included in this weight. Supporting
systems such as coolers, etc are not included because every installation is
different.
The forever ending, always asked question of what is, or is not included is an
airframe question. We build engines. The engine weight is 178 lb. It is for
the airframe manufacturer, to figure out how to keep supporting systems as
efficient and lightweight as possible.

If you need complete installation weights of different airplanes, use complete
airplanes, and their weight and ballance info. There is one of these on the
CH-701 page of the web.

Jan

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Vikingair ... ssage/1298

Ok, he

[Andy Walker]

I would be a bit surprised if many 3300 engined Sonex are less than 200lb FWF. Once you include baffles, ducting, lines, motor mount, electrical wiring, battery, etc...it just seems hard to believe all of that will come in at less than 22lb.

[rizzz]

I would be a bit surprised if many 3300 engined Sonex are less than 200lb FWF. Once you include baffles, ducting, lines, motor mount, electrical wiring, battery, etc...it just seems hard to believe all of that will come in at less than 22lb.

That is true, however apart from the baffles (I think), all this has to be added to the weight of the Viking as well.