Viking Engine

[rizzz]

I posted a message on the Viking yahoo group saying I found this very strange and asked for a bit more clarification.
My message did not make it on the group, he's censoring his discussion groups.

[rizzz]

I'm wondering if I should point Jan to this topic on this forum so we can question him about concerns like this without him being able to censor our posts.

[fastj22]

Did you notice the "new" mufflers? He's on like gen 5 now. Seems to be breaking the welds on the previous generations and everyone must upgrade. Hopefully, some the Sonex guys will get this engine soon and start the R+D process.
I also noticed the Barnstormers had changed to "Sale Pending" . That was quick.

I wouldn't. It didn't turn out well on the RV12 Forum.

[rizzz]

Yep I did notice, again, proof this engine has a lot of testing and development to go.

Yeah, he got banned from that forum...

[TaxMaverick]

I called the Searey owner, Tom -- his number is in the Barnstormers ad. He is a real nice guy.

He says the engine itself is fine. His problems are as follows:

1. As mounted on his SeaRey, the engine moves the center of gravity too far aft. He had to put a 30lb weight in the nose to get it to fly straight.

2. There is an issue with the engine in the pusher configuration. I didn't understand exactly what he said. But, it sounds like the large wings on a SeaRey interfere with the airflow to the prop, robbing it of some power. (420lbs of thrust is what he says he was getting, if I remember right.)

3. The installed weight of the engine is 224lbs. He thinks it is too heavy, especially with the power reduction caused by the engine being in the pusher configuration.

He says he thinks the engine would work fine in a tractor-configuration plane, like the CH 750. (Personally, I would think it is too heavy for a Sonex. I also read somewhere -- I think on the Viking site -- the current gearing is not optimal for a high-speed cruiser, like the Sonex.)

"Buyer beware" with Eggenfellner is another thing he said. He says Eggenfellner will bend over backwards for you as long as you go along with what Eggenfellner wants to do. But, he says Eggenfellner turned on him when he decided he did not want anymore re-engineering done on his pristine new SeaRey. He asked Eggenfellner for a refund. But, Eggenfellner refused.

The YouTube video was taken down by Eggenfellner after the SeaRey owner posted a comment mentioning some of the above.

I still like the engine and would like to buy one. I certainly hope it does not disappear as an option.

- Eggenfellner, reasonable people understand things are not likely to be magically perfect with the first installation on a particular plane. Hiding this is not necessary. Learn and improve.

[fastj22]

The engine has 90% money back guarantee, during the warranty period of one year.

That's from the Viking website.

Are the Subaru conversion owners still getting support from Eggenfellner? I searched but couldn't find anything current.

[rizzz]

I called the Searey owner, Tom -- his number is in the Barnstormers ad. He is a real nice guy.

He says the engine itself is fine. His problems are as follows:

1. As mounted on his SeaRey, the engine moves the center of gravity too far aft. He had to put a 30lb weight in the nose to get it to fly straight.

2. There is an issue with the engine in the pusher configuration. I didn't understand exactly what he said. But, it sounds like the large wings on a SeaRey interfere with the airflow to the prop, robbing it of some power. (420lbs of thrust is what he says he was getting, if I remember right.)

3. The installed weight of the engine is 224lbs. He thinks it is too heavy, especially with the power reduction caused by the engine being in the pusher configuration.

He says he thinks the engine would work fine in a tractor-configuration plane, like the CH 750. (Personally, I would think it is too heavy for a Sonex. I also read somewhere -- I think on the Viking site -- the current gearing is not optimal for a high-speed cruiser, like the Sonex.)

"Buyer beware" with Eggenfellner is another thing he said. He says Eggenfellner will bend over backwards for you as long as you go along with what Eggenfellner wants to do. But, he says Eggenfellner turned on him when he decided he did not want anymore re-engineering done on his pristine new SeaRey. He asked Eggenfellner for a refund. But, Eggenfellner refused.

The YouTube video was taken down by Eggenfellner after the SeaRey owner posted a comment mentioning some of the above.

I still like the engine and would like to buy one. I certainly hope it does not disappear as an option.

- Eggenfellner, reasonable people understand things are not likely to be magically perfect with the first installation on a particular plane. Hiding this is not necessary. Learn and improve.

Jan does not monitor this forum, however, I've posted a message on his forum asking further explanation on the issues stated above, let's see if my post makes it to the forum this time (Jan approves very post before he allows it to go online on his forum)

[fastj22]

You won't see your post on his yahoo forum. He won't respond or allow anything negative. It happened with his Subaru forum too. Which is now idle for the last 3 years.

A little more research found an alternate Yahoo forum for those Subaru customers seeking help with Eggenfellner problems. Its restricted to those who have the engines so difficult for us to see what issues are being discussed.

He's not well received in the RV community. I think I know why now.

[TaxMaverick]

In spite of all his projects that have gone south, I think Eggenfellner deserves credit for being the only one offering us an alternative to paying the Euro premium on a carbureted Rotax.

What are our choices? The Raven Redrives guy told me his engine can't get a CH 750 off the ground -- making me sceptical of his 115 HP claim. Not to mention, you have to scrounge for a ten-year-old Suzuki engine (because they stopped selling that model in the U.S. years ago).

I found some other company with a built-from-scratch alternative to the Rotax -- they had an ad on Barnstormers. But, I can't find them now. It looks like some guys building in a barn though. I feel a lot better amount a Honda core and Eggenfellner having been through the torsional vibration issue with his Subaru engines -- there is no better way to learn than failing and having the world come down on you for it.

Setting things right with the SeaRey owner would make me feel a lot better about Eggenfellner though. This bad publicity must be worse than the hassle of reselling the engine.

[rizzz]

You won't see your post on his yahoo forum. He won't respond or allow anything negative. It happened with his Subaru forum too. Which is now idle for the last 3 years.

A little more research found an alternate Yahoo forum for those Subaru customers seeking help with Eggenfellner problems. Its restricted to those who have the engines so difficult for us to see what issues are being discussed.

He's not well received in the RV community. I think I know why now.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Vikingair ... ssage/1275
My post did indeed not make it to the forum, but I think this post from Jan is a response to what I wrote:

People are asking why the SeaRey supposedly did not fly as good with the Viking
as with the Rotax 914 turbo.

The Viking just recently had a 400 rpm / 60-80 lb of additional thrust
introduced through a tubular intake manifold. This was never tested on the
SeaRey.

The SeaRey LSX model is as much as 150-200 lb heavier than the earlier models.
It is also stronger / has a bigger / heavier tail.

SeaReys in general have an aft CG, we are now moving the engine forward 2"

The SeaRey designer flew this particular airplane, did not sence much of a CG
issue, said the airplane / engine combination has lots of promise.

The pusher Viking SeaRey installation is naturally heavier than in a
conventional tractor layout due to a larger radiator and fan assembly at about
15 lb more.

The excitement surrounding this is that we now will do a second installation,
using what we have learned so far, and really hit the nail on the head. The
changes are:

Working with a builder that has previous SeaRey experience
Shift engine forward 2"
Move engine up 1"
Have oil tank on top of the flap tube for better looks.
More room for the quiet 3 chambered muffler
Prop extension for better airflow into prop
Tubular, performance enhancing Viking intake manifold
ECU software changes for additional power.

There was also a question from a Sonex builder about VW to Viking weights. 2 x
701 customers have gone this way and the airplanes have similar CG but some more
weight. Some of this weight is due to a header tank, not needed on the Sonex
due to it's single fuel tank

We will shortly demonstrate SUPERIOR light sport engine performance with an
RV-12

Jan

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Vikingair ... ssage/1275

In my post I specifically asked why the engine weighed 224lbs on the Searey, much more than published on the website and probably too much for the Sonex, I also asked what was the exact cause of the reduced thrust of only 420lbs.
I guess he did not want these numbers visible on his forum.

The worry is here that we now know Jan is carefully selecting which comments he does or does not allow to be posted. Who knows what other Viking customers have been saying?
How can we get an accurate picture of the positives and negatives of the Viking?
It's also now becoming quite clear that the numbers Jan publishes are probably a little "optimistic", for example the 15lbs he mentions above does not at all account for the difference between the 224lbs experienced by the customer, and the 178lbs published on the Viking website.