Viking Engine

[Mike53]

I couldn't even be bothered to stop and look or talk with anyone at the Viking display this year.Call it bad vibes . :)

[rizzz]

Another Sonex Viking customer published his weight figures,
That's the third real world weight figure we have available, we can now start to get an idea of the weight of a Viking installation compared to the Jabiru, VW and Corvair installations.

Below are the figures along with links to the posts on the Viking forum.

Casey Lyon:
- Weight 722 lbs
- Configuration: Sonex, Painted, Tailwheel
- Source: http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Viki ... sages/1902

Ken Robbers:
- Weight: 721 lbs
- Configuration: Sonex, Polished, Tailwheel
- Source: http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Viki ... sages/3462

Don Bowen:
- Weight 723 lbs (preliminary)
- Configuration: Waiex, Polished, Tailwheel
- Source: http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Viki ... sages/4543

Seems so far they're very close, within 2 lbs, 721 lbs average so far.


Have a look at the August 2012 Sonex weight comparison document which contains the weights of nearly 100 Sonex's in various configurations with various engine options, the document can be found on the Sonextalk yahoo group.

It seems the average Viking installation weight is:
- 65 lbs heavier than the average VW installation
- 108 lbs heavier than the average J2200 installation
- 49 lbs heavier than the average J3300 installation
- 5 lbs lighter than the average Corvair installation (edit: the document states 695 lbs but the number was revised after the document was published)

Also important to note is that only one Aircraft on the list is heavier (it's listed as 2 because that was before/after tailwheel conversion), that's Michael Crowder's J3300 powered painted Sonex which had lots of very heavy accessories like an autopilot and electric flaps. Most others are well below the 700lbs.


Given these numbers I think a Viking Turbo would not be suitable for the Sonex unless you accept your 2-seater Sonex becomes a single seater.

[daleandee]

Hi Michael,

I'm not certain that the Viking is 26 lbs heavier than the average Corvair installation. Dan Weseman listed his at 699 and later revised that to 725. Mine was 726 (before paint) as was Chris Smith's Cleanex. My Cleanex is pretty well equipped with full factory interior, duel Duckworth landing lights, strobes, etc. I guess the point I'm getting at is if the Viking engine is heavier it isn't by much.

But you make a valid point in that Jan has been trying to convince everyone that his conversion is lighter than a 3300 Jab. I knew that was a lie when I seen the battery in the tail of Casey's Sonex. My battery is in the tail and I know why.

Whether or not the Viking is a good engine for the Sonex isn't my call. I have a 3.0 Dan Weseman built Corvair that at close to 40 hours has been nearly flawless and any concerns were fixed within the first hour and since it has been totally trouble free. The Corvair is a proven and reliable engine for the Sonex air frame. I just completed my first full gross weight test flight this morning at 1250 lbs. Myunn flys like a Sonex. The speed bleeds off in a steep turn and climb rate was in the 550-600 FPM area at 100 IAS but other than that it handles just fine.

For me personally the Viking is too complicated with the whole gearbox, Electronic Fuel Injection, water cooling, twin ECU's, etc, things going on. Give me a simple reliable air cooled bunch of horsepower and ... away we go!

Dale Williams
N319WF @ 6J2
Myunn - "daughter of Cleanex"
120 HP - 3.0 Corvair
Tail Wheel - Center Stick
38:18 hours - Phase One
Status - Flying
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UC49h6Qijc17_Ebfz0CbRFtg
http://websites.expercraft.com/daleandee/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/carolinasportflyers/

[rizzz]

Ok, so According to your numbers the average Corvair installation is 726 lbs.
I will correct my post above. Would be good if we could get the document updated as well and get the Viking numbers added.

[daleandee]

I personally believe that a Corvair/Sonex can be built that would weigh very close to 700 lbs empty. If I gave up some interior, both landing lights, the dual strobe kit that includes the box, and perhaps had not framed out the luggage area, I could have saved a few more pounds. But, I was concerned with the overall weight but not obsessing over it. Then with the gross at 1250 lbs a nice 550 lbs payload would be available.

To date the heaviest Corvair/Sonex I have personally seen had an empty weight of 840 lbs. I have no idea what the gross was set to. It was an extremely nice airplane with beautiful paint, gorgeous custom interior, and just about every option one could desire. But for me that's just too heavy.

More to your point ... I personally believe that the Corvair and the Viking are within a few pounds of each other. I also wonder if these empty weights were "ready to fly" weights. When I did my W&B I had everything in the airplane that I normally fly with i.e. two GPS units. both headsets, flight bag, full engine oil, etc.

Dale Williams
N319WF @ 6J2
Myunn - "daughter of Cleanex"
120 HP - 3.0 Corvair
Tail Wheel - Center Stick
38:18 hours - Phase One
Status - Flying
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UC49h6Qijc17_Ebfz0CbRFtg
http://websites.expercraft.com/daleandee/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/carolinasportflyers/

[fastj22]

I just re-did my W/B. This time with full interior, paint, fairings, wheel pants. Empty fuel and no personal gear.
My Waiex came in at 706 lbs. Jab 3300, tri-gear, LiPo Battery on the firewall, dual MGL xTreme EFIS, Garmin xponder, MGL V6 radio.
I'm fairly happy with it. I don't think I would like it any heavier.
I plan on converting to a tail dragger and hope to lose 10 lbs. A man can hope.

[Don Bowen]

I think it may be misleading to say that the Viking installation is 65 pounds heavier than the average VW installation. The numbers may be true, but you really need to look at specific aircraft rather than averages. I think a lot of the VW planes are built pretty light to begin with.

My AeroVee powered Waiex weighed in at 699 pounds as built. After the Viking installation it weighs 723 pounds. My plane was heavy to begin with. The Viking engine, with oil and coolant, increased the weight by 29 pounds. Replacing the Odyssey battery with Shorai batteries saves 5 pounds, so the net increase in my empty weight is 24 pounds. No where near 65 pounds.

These are preliminary figures as I still need to paint my cowl and finish the wiring. When I get it finishe I will do another W&B and will post the numbers.

I'm ok with the ~24 pound increase. I don't see it as that big of a deal for my personal flying situation. Then again, these are personal airplanes and this increase may not be for everyone. I just think it is a bit misleading to say that the Viking installation is 65 pounds heavier than the average VW installation. Using the lightweight batteries you are looking at around a 25 pound increase to the aircraft. It really depends on what your plane weighs before the install. Casey, Ken and myself all have pretty well equipped aircraft. If a builder kept it simple a much lighter Viking powered Sonex or Waiex could be achieved.

Happy flying to you all, whichever engine you choose.

Don Bowen
Viking Waiex N49YX
KMCC

[rizzz]

I think it may be misleading to say that the Viking installation is 65 pounds heavier than the average VW installation. The numbers may be true, but you really need to look at specific aircraft rather than averages. I think a lot of the VW planes are built pretty light to begin with.

My AeroVee powered Waiex weighed in at 699 pounds as built. After the Viking installation it weighs 723 pounds. My plane was heavy to begin with. The Viking engine, with oil and coolant, increased the weight by 29 pounds. Replacing the Odyssey battery with Shorai batteries saves 5 pounds, so the net increase in my empty weight is 24 pounds. No where near 65 pounds.

These are preliminary figures as I still need to paint my cowl and finish the wiring. When I get it finishe I will do another W&B and will post the numbers.

I'm ok with the ~24 pound increase. I don't see it as that big of a deal for my personal flying situation. Then again, these are personal airplanes and this increase may not be for everyone. I just think it is a bit misleading to say that the Viking installation is 65 pounds heavier than the average VW installation. Using the lightweight batteries you are looking at around a 25 pound increase to the aircraft. It really depends on what your plane weighs before the install. Casey, Ken and myself all have pretty well equipped aircraft. If a builder kept it simple a much lighter Viking powered Sonex or Waiex could be achieved.

Happy flying to you all, whichever engine you choose.

Don Bowen
Viking Waiex N49YX
KMCC

So looking at specific aircraft then,
When you had your AeroVee still on your airplane, with your 699lbs you would have been the second heaviest VW powered Sonex on the list.
Only Peter van Schalkwyk's tri-gear painted VW powered Waiex is heavier at 713lbs and he has an autopilot with servo's and all installed (see the notes).
The next one down would be Gary Wright's painted tri-gear vw-powered Sonex at 688lbs.

Maybe the heavier airframes out there have just not been wel represented on this list so lets look at the other end of the spectrum then,
The lightest VW powered Sonex on the list comes in at 608lbs, Tom Zelie's tri-gear polished VW powered Sonex, so that one is 112lbs lighter than the lightest Viking engine installation to date.
So if the 30lbs difference between an VW and Viking installation is correct, do you believe it is possible to build a tri-gear polished Sonex/Viking that weighs only 638lbs?

So engine aside, can I just ask what you think contributes to the extra weight of the airframe?
I guess you hi-tech honda boys like to equip your aircraft with lots of high tech goodies as well.
Would be good to see someone install a Viking on a lighter air frame.


I must also say I don't think you're comparing apples with apples if you compare a Viking with the Shorai battery and the AeroVee with a much heavier standard battery.
Is there any reason the Shorai batteries can't be used in combination with a VW (or other) engine?
I'm sure I've seen someone on the Sonextalk groups who had one on his J2200 powered Sonex.

[Don Bowen]

I did not build the Waiex, but it was weighed by an A&P at a certified repair station. It has a nice interior, nice avionics, strobe lights, wing tip lights, etc. Well equipped planes are heavier. The Waiex's all come from the same kit, so I believe the builder installed options are what make the difference.

Viking recommends the dual Shorai batteries, so that is what is reflected in my weight and balance figures. Apples to apples, if I had stayed with the single Odyssey battery the empty weight of my plane would have increased by 29 pounds. Installing two Shorai batteries instead of the single Odyssey saved me 5 pounds. In this new configuration (Viking with Shorai batteries) the empty weight of my plane has increased by 24 pounds. These are preliminary, interim figures. When I finish the plane it will go up on scales and I will post the numbers.

As to the Shorai batteries, I suppose you could use them with an AeroVee or Jab. They are very lightweight, but they are expensive. List price is $249 each, I got mine for $191 each on Amazon with free shipping. Yes, four hundred bucks for batteries is pretty pricey! But the darned things are light!

If you don't like the Viking that is fine. No problem with that, just saying that the weight increase isn't as much as what the "average" figures might indicate. By my experience the weight increase from this conversion is nowhere near 65 pounds. I think that when I finish my Viking Waiex it will weigh maybe thirty pounds more than when I started. With any luck I will have dropped thirty pounds by then and we will be even.

[rizzz]

I think that when I finish my Viking Waiex it will weigh maybe thirty pounds more than when I started.

That would be a very acceptable outcome and as I've stated in my previous post, the lightest VW powered Sonex on the list is 608lbs.
Given this number and your experience of a 30lbs increase it should be very possible for someone to build a Viking/Sonex that weighs less than 650lbs, I'm looking forward to seeing someone accomplish this, it would certainly raise some eyebrows.
Until then I hope you understand my skepticism, but maybe we just don't have enough data yet.