Xenos ordering options

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Xenos ordering options

Postby bbt95762 » Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:44 pm

Hi all,

newbie question. I'm looking at the ordering options for the Xenos.

the machined parts kit looks like good value - $1300
The wingspar kit ($4000) seems pricey for the amount of time saved. everything I've read suggests you can build the spars with standard rivet squeezers and 3x gun. Am I missing something?

what were the best options you all ordered?

also anyone have experience trailering xenos?

Thanks,
Brian.
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Re: Xenos ordering options

Postby Homebuilt3 » Tue Jan 27, 2015 12:51 pm

I ordered the machined parts option I found them good value and I believe the $1300 is well spent as the parts come needing very little finishing as compared to a part that I would have cut out on my band saw and finished to remove all the saw cut marks.
As for the spar I have not done anything on that part yet but I have done a bunch of riveting for friends and on my other aircraft and a -4 rivet is not to hard to squeeze if you are only doing a few but it gets old fast in something as large as the wing spar
I am also going to build a custom sailplane like trailer for my Xenos If it is good enough for a Stemme I think a Xenos weill not mind
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Re: Xenos ordering options

Postby Bob » Tue Jan 27, 2015 1:18 pm

Brian,
I am just about ready to rivet the second wing spar for my Xenos. The first wing took 8 months. A lot of that (I'd have to add up hours in my log) was spent building up the spar. This second one has gone faster. Some time was wasted buying the correct tools (counterstops, drill bits, cleco's, more clecos, etc.). I also built the reverse pieces needed for the second wing. Seemed easier to do two once I had started with the first one even though the second part was usually "backwards" from the first. Same with the ribs.

To answer your question-the extra cost would not have been worth it for me. I should note, I am mostly retired so have more time to bend, cut, drill, deburr, rivet metal.

Good luck on the project. We should have quite a few Xenos's around in a few years! Bob in VA.
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Re: Xenos ordering options

Postby Rynoth » Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:09 pm

I built my Waiex wing spars. I spent about 20 hours fabricating the angle components that go on the spars themselves (these would have been included in the machined parts option that I didn't get.) I then spent 50 more hours drilling, assembling and riveting the main spars over the course of 3 weeks. The Xenos spars are quite a bit larger, but I'm not sure if they're any more complex (just a lot more rivets.) So my guess is that the $4k pre-assembled spars might save you 100 hours at most. Probably less.

Here's a good discussion thread on the machined angle upgrade. IMO it's the better value of the 2 options. My guess was that the upgrade may have saved me about 80 hours. viewtopic.php?f=5&t=559&hilit=machined+angle
Ryan Roth
N197RR - Waiex #197 (Turbo Aerovee Taildragger)
Knoxville, TN (Hangar at KRKW)
My project blog: http://www.rynoth.com/wordpress/waiex/
Time-lapse video of my build: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8QTd2HoyAM
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Re: Xenos ordering options

Postby NWade » Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:55 pm

My Sonex spars took about 120 hours to complete, with about 20 of those hours being required to drill and re-rivet a bunch of the spar as I put the factory rivet heads on the wrong side of the spar-web (d'oh)! I would imagine that the Xenos spars - if built without mistakes that require re-work - would also take about this long. So consider the value of your time and how long you think it'll take you to build the plane, and then go from there. For the record, when I bought my Sonex plans in 2009 I thought my plane would fly in 2012. Then I started flying sailplanes a lot in the summer months, then I got engaged, then I got a promotion at work; and now its looking like it'll be late 2015 or early 2016 - if I'm lucky! But the point is: its not unreasonable that 100 hours of labor could be roughly a year you add/subtract to your build time.

As for the machined angle components: DO IT!!!
I started out scratch-building my Sonex, and began by buying a bunch of aluminum angle. I put about 50 hours into learning how to shape and refine the various angle components; and started feeling realllly good about what I was making. Then my work-life got busier and it became clear that I needed to get the kit if I was going to finish the plane. I bought the tail sub-kit, which comes with machined angle components. WOW, the difference between my "good" hand-shaped parts and the CNC-made parts was incredible. When placed side-by-side, my stuff looked like crap! On the one hand, it was a bit disheartening. But watching everything line up nicely and having lots of pilot-holes to work with was really awesome. It immediately convinced me of the value of the machined angle components. I went ahead and bought the rest of the Sonex kit with these components, and have never regretted it for an instant! Initially I thought I'd use a few of my hand-crafted parts anyways - just to honor the labor I'd put in, and the spirit of homebuilding. But the CNC parts are just so darned perfect that I haven't been able to bring myself to use a single one of the pieces I made! I've got a whole box of them still sitting quietly (and sadly) in the corner of the garage.

That's my $0.02,

--Noel Wade
Sonex #1339
Center-stick, TD, Turbo Aerovee, Acro-ailerons
Build time: 467 hours (tail complete, wings near-complete)
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Re: Xenos ordering options

Postby ScottM-Sonex1629 » Tue Jan 27, 2015 10:28 pm

I'm with Ryan (mostly) on this one. I am nearing the completion of my Sonex, and didn't buy any of the machined angle parts or spars. I actually enjoyed (for the most part) making the angled parts, and even more so making the spars. Of the two I think the angled parts kit would save you the most time, avoid possible confusion, and the possible frustration of incorrectly making angled parts. Fortunately my pile of messed up angle pieces is rather small as I'd like to think my learning curve was quick. With the spars if you choose to build them, invest in a quality 2x or 3x rivet gun and skip the factory suggested bolt method for setting the solid rivets. Makes quick and accurate work of the spar rivets.

If you have a band saw, table saw, and sanding (belt) table, the angle parts are pretty easy to make. The biggest challenge is the quantity. I made them as I went when it was needed so as not to get burned out on any one task. I'm close to starting the canopy and fortunately the canopy latch angle and frame are the last of my angle components to make for the kit!
Scott Meyer
Sonex 1629 - Sold...9/2019
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Re: Xenos ordering options

Postby Bryan Cotton » Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:07 am

I am an avowed scratch builder, except for the Waiex project. I love the machined angle kit.
Bryan Cotton
Poplar Grove, IL C77
Waiex 191 N191YX
Taildragger, Aerovee, acro ailerons
dual sticks with sport trainer controls
Prebuilt spars and machined angle kit
Year 2 flying and approaching 200 hours December 23
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Re: Xenos ordering options

Postby daleandee » Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:55 am

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Last edited by daleandee on Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Xenos ordering options

Postby bvolcko38 » Fri Apr 01, 2016 6:03 pm

Bob wrote:Brian,
I am just about ready to rivet the second wing spar for my Xenos. The first wing took 8 months. A lot of that (I'd have to add up hours in my log) was spent building up the spar. This second one has gone faster. Some time was wasted buying the correct tools (counterstops, drill bits, cleco's, more clecos, etc.). I also built the reverse pieces needed for the second wing. Seemed easier to do two once I had started with the first one even though the second part was usually "backwards" from the first. Same with the ribs.

To answer your question-the extra cost would not have been worth it for me. I should note, I am mostly retired so have more time to bend, cut, drill, deburr, rivet metal.

Good luck on the project. We should have quite a few Xenos's around in a few years! Bob in VA.

How many and what size and reach are rewuired for the xenos spar?
Bill Volcko XNS0068
Xenos A N68WV 99% flush rivets
Aerovee and Prince P-Tip
MGL Discovery Lite w/ Sandia STX 165R
V6
First hole 4/1/16
First flight 8/24/18
Phase I complete...finally!!!
Also flying a Challenger II since 1999
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Re: Xenos ordering options

Postby Bob » Sat Apr 02, 2016 9:29 am

Didn't see the question until after posting about the wing tips. Guess you are asking about the clecos. haven't counted but it always seemed I needed more. I did get 50 long reach, silver, copper, black, and gold. Needed them on the spar, especially near the inside. I also borrowed a bunch of the screw types from a local A&P.

The no. of rivets noted in the plans was correct. I did use a few more (after drilling out bad ones).

Bob (Xenos no.59)
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