SonexBuilders.net

Hi Guys,

On the forefront of my mind right now is gaining proficiency in my new Onex. The airplane is fun but will be a lot more fun when I'm not worried about the conclusion of each flight. I now have a total of 10 fights and 13 landings in the airplane and things are getting less tense but I still have a long way to go.

So, I enjoy reading all I can about the basics of takeoffs and landings from experienced Sonex/Onex pilots. I read the "Short runway and crosswind" and Jeff's "Custom Checklist Cards for the Cockpit" threads scanning for numbers, techniques, and rationales for pattern work. I'm looking for any tips I can find such as speeds, flap settings, xwind techniques, ...

Example:
While airborne the other day the wind went from basically nothing to about a 5 Kt direct cross from the left. That little hurricane off the coast was making the winds a little unusual for the area. That was more than enough excitement for me at my present level of proficiency.

Here's how the landing went. I rolled out on final and got a feel for the cross wind by crabbing for just a bit while coming down final. I then cross controlled most of the way down as necessary to keep the plane aligned with the runway while cancelling drift. I was too busy to look at the airspeed but have a suspicion that I instinctively lowered the nose and built up speed while slipping in for the landing. I spent a long time in the flair. It ended OK but I'm sure it wasn't a thing of beauty to watch.

So, is this the how you guys do it. Or, do you wait and kick the tail around as you enter ground effect. Or, ... Is it necessary to increase speed while cross controlled?

I should probably take the plane to altitude and answer these questions myself, but any knowledge you guys can impart would be appreciated.

Really anything at all concerning pattern work.

Thanks for Your Time,

Wes

Hi Wes,

I'm glad you're getting in a lot of flying and starting to gain comfort with your new toy. Don't feel bad or be afraid of being timid at this point. I used to tell my students that it takes 100 hours of flying an airplane to really get comfortable with it, and I still believe that's the case. Sounds like you're off to a great start though!

I'm not sure how much I can help with suggestions as I've never flown a Onex, so take the following for the two cents it may be worth (probably not worth that).

When I'm flying my Waiex, I tend to fly it a little faster than I should on final unless I'm really trying to land on a short field. In general, I don't like seeing less than 60 miles per hour on final until I'm almost to the runway, and when I'm still out on final approach I will normally be closer to 65-70 mph. On crosswind situations I will generally keep the ball centered and crab into the wind until I'm just about ready to enter the flare, and at that point I'll start dropping the wing into the wind and feeding in opposite rudder to line up the nose. I don't see any reason you couldn't start slipping earlier on the approach, but personally I wait until I'm basically over the runway.

On strong crosswinds (I have my own opinions on the crosswind capability of my Waiex but let's just say I tend to fly only if the crosswinds aren't very strong at all) I will normally land with less flaps and a little faster. I have landed with no flaps and while it does change the pitch a little bit, it's nothing drastic. That does give me an extra few miles per hour to the landing speed which does seem to help with control authority.

Finally, if I'm facing a strong crosswind and I really need to get the airplane on the ground, I will generally use 20 degrees (two notches) or full flaps (30 degrees), get into the flare with just a bit of a crab into the wind (keeps me on the centerline), and try to kick the nose straight with rudder right as I touch down. At the same time I will bring the flaps up which kills the remaining lift and glues the airplane to the runway, and get on the brakes fairly hard to get it down to taxi speeds. Normally not super pretty but it gets the plane down.

I don't know if any of that makes sense...let me know if not and I'll try to explain further. In the meantime, continue getting to know your airplane and expand your envelope a little at a time as the airplane proves reliability to you. You have plenty of time to get used to it!

Have fun!
Mike

WesRagle wrote:Hi Guys,

On the forefront of my mind right now is gaining proficiency in my new Onex. The airplane is fun but will be a lot more fun when I'm not worried about the conclusion of each flight. I now have a total of 10 fights and 13 landings in the airplane and things are getting less tense but I still have a long way to go.

So, I enjoy reading all I can about the basics of takeoffs and landings from experienced Sonex/Onex pilots. I read the "Short runway and crosswind" and Jeff's "Custom Checklist Cards for the Cockpit" threads scanning for numbers, techniques, and rationales for pattern work. I'm looking for any tips I can find such as speeds, flap settings, xwind techniques, ...

Example:
While airborne the other day the wind went from basically nothing to about a 5 Kt direct cross from the left. That little hurricane off the coast was making the winds a little unusual for the area. That was more than enough excitement for me at my present level of proficiency.

Here's how the landing went. I rolled out on final and got a feel for the cross wind by crabbing for just a bit while coming down final. I then cross controlled most of the way down as necessary to keep the plane aligned with the runway while cancelling drift. I was too busy to look at the airspeed but have a suspicion that I instinctively lowered the nose and built up speed while slipping in for the landing. I spent a long time in the flair. It ended OK but I'm sure it wasn't a thing of beauty to watch.

So, is this the how you guys do it. Or, do you wait and kick the tail around as you enter ground effect. Or, ... Is it necessary to increase speed while cross controlled?

I should probably take the plane to altitude and answer these questions myself, but any knowledge you guys can impart would be appreciated.

Really anything at all concerning pattern work.

Thanks for Your Time,

Wes

Although some may not believe it, I've landed (and took off) my Waiex in a 20 knot 90 degree crosswind. Most challenging of my aviating. The Sonex is a capable crosswind aircraft. I'm sure the Onex is the same.

A 5 knot x-wind component is an excellent time to do a few touch and goes and get the feel.

Always, when there is a crosswind component, carry more speed. It lowers the effect. When I did my approach in the 20 knot cross, I added 20 knots to my approach speed, no flaps.

I also fly a tail wheel Piper Pawnee which is a hoot to play with the crosswind, the thing is a tank. My technique (works with gliders, Pawnees and Sonex) is to fly the crab on final keeping aligned to the runway. That gives you a great feel on the degree of crosswind component. about 3 feet off the threshold, I'll kick the downwind rudder and get into side slip, aligning the plane to the runway. The goal is the get the windward main wheel on the ground. Then drop the tail and other main about the same time. Force the windward wing down and hard kick of the downwind rudder pedal. Gusty conditions are especially challenging but this technique has served me well. Once all three are in contact, you should be good to go if you keep the controls into the wind. I have had a case where the wind was so strong in just swung the tail around while taxiing. Very embarrassing.

I tow for my glider club in the Pawnee and frequently have to make due with what I have lest my glider buddies mock me. My personal limits for the Pawnee are a 20 knot crosswind component with no gusts. In the Sonex, I keep it to 10 knots. just not much fun in the lighter airplane. But sometimes, especially when doing a cross country, you can't choose the winds you land in when you are running low on fuel.

Hi Mike,

That all makes perfect sense. I'm still a little bit spastic on flap retraction. The flap handle is farther back on the Onex so you can't lean forward and use your back to pull. It's strictly a shoulder thing. I'll get used to it, but it's not quite as natural as I remember the Sonex being so right now I tend to wiggle the airplane around while retracting flaps (on a balk).

I do think most of the Sonex techniques will transfer to the Onex. The wing loading on the Onex is a little higher so at first I'll add about 5 kts to the Sonex/Waiex numbers until I get more experience.

Hi John,

fastj22 wrote:A 5 knot x-wind component is an excellent time to do a few touch and goes and get the feel.

I agree. That's a goal. First I have to do my first touch and go :-) This is what I remember from my Sonex days. Since the three point attitude of the Sonex is shallower than the stall AOA you can't really full stall land it. So, I would land three point, once all three were rolling I would dump the flaps and *then* pin the tail. Once stable on roll out I would add throttle enough to get good rudder effectiveness, raise the tail, add full throttle, and go. I'm not quite coordinated enough to do that just yet. Right now I'm focused like a laser on directional control. Soon ...

Not sure the little Onex flaps generate much lift. Full flaps are more like speed brakes I think.

A little story of my worst landing thus far:

I was trying hard to get one of those nice three pointers I loved making in the Sonex. Since the key to a good landing is a good approach I focused on speed control. I had calm winds, power off, and 70 MPH indicated locked in over the numbers. The site picture activated an old memory trace and I started smiling inside. I brought it all the way down, not going to flare too high this time! I got this :-)

Then I made my first mistake. I relaxed. When I flared I ballooned it. I'm going to blame that on my Champ time. With my instructor and me in the Champ if you made it to the flare you were going to land. Never ballooned it once. Since the Onex is flying all the way until landing it will balloon in the flare if asked :-) Of course since I had the approach nailed there was no energy left to recover.

Second mistake. I had the black knob in my left hand but wasn't prepared to use it. I just hauled back on the stick and let the airplane flop down. Very ugly. Taxied back to the hangar, made sure the wheel pants were still attached, licked my wounds and left for the day.

Lesson (re)learned: Keep flying the airplane well into the landing roll.

Anyway, another question. Do you guys fly different speeds on the various legs of the pattern or just set up for say 75 all the way around and then slow on the final approach? When do you deploy flaps and how much? I only have half and full flaps.

Thanks,

Wes

Pattern Speeds in the Onex

Wes........in the pattern I have been using 100 mph on the downwind, turning base I pull on half flaps (25 degrees) as I slow to 85 mph. I have been holding 85 mph all the way down final (I wanna get there, right?) and slow down to 65 coming over the numbers. In the flair I am under 60 .....a full stall arrival will hit the tailwheel first every time.

For touch and go's I apply power and I leave the flap lever alone (25 degrees) while I start the climb out with half flaps, then dump the flaps once established in a solid climb. The Hummel 85 hp will easily climb out with half flaps. I have tried full flap landings and no flap landings and I now prefer the half flap (25 degrees) position. Your mileage may vary.

As you have already found out....pulling full flaps (45 degrees) at 100 mph takes a LOT of muscle, partly because of the awkward position of the flap lever and your shoulder/arm movement. Half flaps is so much more "user friendly" for us old timers.

After a lot of flight time in my RV-6 and also my RV-7 with the "springy" Van's landing gear, I find my Onex is a delight and very easy to land.......no bounce at all from this gear. The big thing is don't flair too high and drop it in. I DO wish the gear was 4 or 5" longer for better AOA to better accommodate a full stall landing without hitting the tail first......my opinion. The Onex will also "wheel land" very nicely as well.

Have fun with your new airplane Wes.....

Gordon ........Hummel 2400.......Onex 0024

Speed control is key on any Sonex aircraft. A few extra mph in the flair will make a BIG difference in the amount of float you get. You don't want any more than 60 mph entering the flair or you're gonna float for a long way. This is especially annoying, if not aggravating, when dealing with a crosswind. If you want to add A FEW mph to account for gusts, that's fine. A FEW is not 10. It's not 20. It's maybe 5. Otherwise you're on the float boat.

All the Sonex designs handle crosswinds very well. I once landed the prototype Waiex in a 25 knot direct crosswind because the customer that was with me had heard all the stories about the Waiex not liking crosswinds. it was work, sure, but it would have been in any airplane. The Waiex handled it fine. The Onex would too. Not that I recommend going out looking for 25 knot crosswinds mind you. My point is, the airplanes are very capable, so the pilots can rest assured that if they are comfortable with the conditions, they airplane will be as well.

As for technique, I've always been one to set up the cross-control approach early rather than late. when you're on short final getting ready to flair is not the time to be making major configuration changes to your approach. Setting up earlier gives you more time to judge just how much wing-down and how much rudder you need to stop the drift and stay aligned. You don't have time to figure that out if you go from crab to cross-control late in the game. That's not a stabilized approach at that point. Get set up early and all you'll need to do is make minor adjustments as you approach the runway.

Take it in small bites. Start out with either a very light crosswind or a stronger wind that is just slightly misaligned with the runway, and then as you get more comfortable, start expanding the envelope. The airplane is ready to handle whatever you feel comfortable with.

Be safe and have fun!

fastj22 wrote:Although some may not believe it, I've landed (and took off) my Waiex in a 20 knot 90 degree crosswind. Most challenging of my aviating. The Sonex is a capable crosswind aircraft. I'm sure the Onex is the same.

Yep, I don't believe it! :) (Just joking of course!)

Sonerai13 wrote: I once landed the prototype Waiex in a 25 knot direct crosswind because the customer that was with me had heard all the stories about the Waiex not liking crosswinds. it was work, sure, but it would have been in any airplane. The Waiex handled it fine.

You guys are awesome! I must be doing something really wrong in mine because I pretty much have a 10 knot crosswind limit in mine; any more than that and I don't have sufficient rudder to keep the nose straight. And, while I don't mean to hijack this thread but since we're talking about it, I've been told there are basically two strategies for dealing with strong crosswinds in a Waiex. First, come in fast, no flaps, and maybe even keep a little bit of power on while in the flare to help energize the airflow over the tail, and maybe give a little more rudder authority. This helps but like others have said, you can eat up a lot of runway if you're not careful. The second option is to come in with full flaps, keep the airplane crabbed into the wind as you enter the flare, and basically let the plane fall onto the runway in a full stall situation while you (hopefully) kick the nose straight, at the same time bringing the flaps up to really glue the plane onto the runway.

Joe, when you are flying your Sonex (or when you were running T-Flight) did you teach students to land flaps UP in crosswind situations?

Getting back on topic....

WesRagle wrote:Anyway, another question. Do you guys fly different speeds on the various legs of the pattern or just set up for say 75 all the way around and then slow on the final approach? When do you deploy flaps and how much? I only have half and full flaps.

Wes, in general I tend to fly my Waiex in a similar fashion as I flew Cirrus's back in the day; i.e., each leg of the traffic pattern is a little slower than the last. To put numbers in this description, I will try to be at pattern altitude and somewhere around 100-110 mph as I enter the downwind leg. Once established and midfield, maintain altitude and let airspeed slowly bleed so you're around 90-100 mph when you're abeam the numbers on the downwind leg. At that point, I will reduce power, hold back pressure to maintain altitude until the airspeed drops to around 90 mph, add 10 degrees of flaps, and then adjust the pitch down slightly to maintain your airspeed. If I have done things right I am now about ready to turn base leg, 85-90 mph, 10 degrees of flaps, and descending around 400-500 feet per minute. I make the turn onto base and adjust the pitch to get me at or below 80 mph so I can add the second notch of flaps (20 degrees) and let airspeed settle in around 70-75 mph. Then its make the turn to final, and once I get to maybe 1/2 mile from the runway, adjust pitch again to get the airspeed down to 60-65 mph using pitch to control airspeed and power to control altitude/descent rate.
With you only having two notches of flaps, if it were me I would put down half flaps abeam the numbers on downwind and the second notch of flaps once established on the base leg. Of course that can always be modified with unusual situations such as following slower traffic, short field operations, crusswinds, etc.

Make any sense at all?

MichaelFarley56 wrote:Joe, when you are flying your Sonex (or when you were running T-Flight) did you teach students to land flaps UP in crosswind situations?

Nope. Typically I'll use 20 degrees. I know some people use 10 and some use none, but I never had any problem with 20 degrees in most any landing situation. I really only use full flaps for serious short field work. I'm talking the standard wing, with the HUGE flaps. With the aerobatic ailerons (and associated smaller flaps) I'd use full flaps more often.

When I say I've landed in a 20 knot direct crosswind, I didn't say it was fun. I wouldn't even say it was sporty. It was a carrier landing.
It was the day of the total eclipse across America 8/21/2017. Three ships launched out of middle Colorado to intercept the eclipse in flight in southwest Nebraska. We decided to stage in a little airport off I80 in eastern Wyoming. Anyone who knows Wyoming, knows wind. So it was me in the Waiex, Carl and Big Ian in his Nan Chang and little Ian in a Broussard. We came in as a flight of three with me being last. Ian is a fantastic 18 year old pilot and greased the Broussard in. Carl was a bit more sporty but kept it lined up. I kept my speed up, touched the windward main down, plopped down the others and felt like I skidded to a stop. We were an hour or so from peak eclipse so had some lunch, talked to the local fire crew who felt it would be wise to be there. 30 minutes to eclipse, we relaunched and headed to the intercept about 30 miles north. The wind was the same, so I kept full controls into the wind during takeoff and once off the ground things settled down. The picture is through the top of the canopy at peak eclipse. I got 3 minutes of night flight logged. We were at 12,000ft MSL and could see the eclipse shadow line go across the ground. I was full of fuel and with a 35 knot wind out of the north, turned and burned back home in record time. Most memorable flight.

HI Guys,

Thanks for the replies.

MichaelFarley56 wrote:And, while I don't mean to hijack this thread

Hijack away ... Reading other peoples experience with these airplanes is very helpful.

And what about takeoffs?

My instructor wants me to lift the tail just slightly and wait for the plane to fly off in the three point attitude. He flies off of a grass strip in a Champ (65 hp) so I think he might be a little biased toward soft field techniques. I would imagine this technique would be easiest on tires as well.

I read that Jeff lifts the tail, waits for the airplane to accelerate and then rotates. That's how I used to do it in the Sonex. I would push the stick all the way forward into any crosswind, apply power, lift the tail as soon as possible, accelerate to flying speed and then rotate. I find that technique more comfortable. Better visibility and smoother control.

Opinions?

Thanks,

Wes