Sonex Builders and Pilots Foundation - discussion

[WesRagle]

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[Sonex Foundation]

The point of this post was not to start an argument. I think everyone means well, and we all have the same goal. Safety and enjoying these fantastic, fun aircraft!

The foundation and the forum *never* replace the requirement to contact technical support first when you have a problem or a question.

But we can, and should all learn from each other.

Please. Let’s focus on the original point. What our foundation can and should do, and how.

I’m about to go fly mine. Right now.

Thanks
Robbie

[WesRagle]

The point of this post was not to start an argument.

Sorry, my fault. Sometimes I post as if we were sitting in the living room brain storming and not on a public forum.
I apologize. Bad form. I'm going to delete my posts hoping to reset the discussion.
I do detest drama.

Please. Let’s focus on the original point. What our foundation can and should do, and how.

I would have found it helpful if I could have gone to a model specific page on the foundation web site and found sage advise concerning potential problems and suggesting specific construction sequences that would prevent builder induced frustration.

Thanks,

Wes

[sonex1374]

Before I swung by this group to see what the day's topics were I made a pass through the tech support email to see what may have come in since my last check, which was last night (Saturday) at 8 PM. Occasionally when I answer tech support email on a Sunday, or Christmas Day, or Easter, or New Year's Eve, or while I'm on vacation, or late on a Saturday night, someone notices and comments. I do it because I can, not because it's required of me. It helps me keep up with the volume and I know it gets a builder back to the building. But I've been doing it for nearly 18 years so I guess its become part of the status quo that everyone has just accepted.

Kerry,

On behalf of every Sonex builder and pilot I know, please accept my thanks for everything you do for us! I really mean it. You are in the trenches every day, doing the heavy lifting so we can all enjoy our little corner of the experimental aviation world. We are lucky to have you on board, and I for one don't say thank you enough.

Keep up the good work, and know that we truly do appreciate you and the rest of the team at Sonex Aircraft!

Jeff

[GraemeSmith]

I happened to send Robbie a longish email before he started this thread. Rather than repost the whole thing (because many of my observations have already been covered) I'll throw in these points:

Foundation Identity

It’s diluted and I’m not 100% clear what is what.

sonexfoundation.com – The foundation. Right? I paid to be a voting member. But I’m not clear when dues are due again. I’m 99.9% ceetain – that apart form getting a PayPal receipt – I never heard from the FOUNDATION again. It seems you can get the benefit of the whole Foundation site without paying – except posting in the forum?

sonexbuilders.net – The Forum – hosted and paid for by Chris (?). Is this a separate venture or part of the foundation? I spotted the little blurb in the corner asking for donations to keep the forum hosting going and sent him some small $$ a while back. So the forum is not the foundation?

sonexaircraft.com – The factory

Facebook Group – just a bunch of Sonex builders/owners by the look of it.



The value proposition

Pilots being notoriously cheap – they go for anything free. So a real “threat” to the foundation if you like is the Facebook Group – however imperfect a medium it is. So the Foundation part has to offer “value” for the small $$ it charges. I know the C150/2 club has been facing this issue – but they seem to be steadily recruiting since it was bought out and they revamped everything to bring it up to date. Kirk would know better about their membership numbers – but the fresh look seems to be helping.

So what does being a foundation member get me that I can’t get for free anyway? I don’t have an answer to this – except that all “clubs” are facing this sort of issue with the proliferation of “free” stuff on the Internet.


A direction?

There is a strong focus on building. And so there should be. If you can’t get your plane to the start line – you are not going flying.

A PERSONAL view is there then needs to be some additional focus on the “fun” of going places and going flying. (The sort of thing I’ve thrown the occasional post up about in the General section) because while we all like to tinker and build and maintain – you do need to fly too!

Which leads (in my mind) to even MORE emphasis on safety and currency. A reason I did not build and bought built was because I like to fly and 3-4 years down time building would leave me so rusty – I would never dare fly the plane! Even with some significant rust knocking. Wes’s current thread about getting current again is to be commended and advertised and celebrated.

There seems to be a few secondary owners (like me) who are now popping up as they buy built planes and looking for transition training. And it seems to be very hard to get anything that will satisfy the insurers. I got very lucky that Mike Smith knew a fairly close CFI who could help me. But I still was flying in a gray area as I flew solo up to Fitchburg for each lesson with him till I got my 5 hours in that the insurers wanted. Seems we need to get some sort of insurer agreement as to what is a suitable “similar” aircraft to get training in. Not may left turning props out there though for the AeroVee crowd……

But making transition/insurance issues easier will help the secondary market. And with a decent secondary market – then there is a better chance of growing the type.

And as the factory doesn't offer the transition training anymore – then?

And more to the point

Not here to bitch? What can I do to help?

[Sonex Foundation]

Thanks Graeme

Here’s how everyone can help.

We need someone to take over website maintenance. Heck, it can use a facelift. This is not a big job, and long term its a little bit here and there. This person has to have some web skills.

I would love to have a new logo. Anyone have graphics design skills?

We need newsletter articles. It seems as if everyone loves the newsletter. But it needs content. That could include things you have done and places you have gone in your airplane.

One person in charge of maintaining, tracking and insuring the return of tools. (per David A’s excellent suggestion)

This is just off the top of my head on a Monday morning.

Robbie Culver
President
Sonex Builders and Pilots Foundation

[SonexN76ET]

To further enhance the safety of Sonex aircraft and to help builders and new pilots meet insurance requirements, I propose that we start a Sonex Flying Club. I propose that we have a group of experienced Sonex builders pitch in and build a Sonex trainer. The Experimental Amateur Built Aircraft should be a tri gear Jabiru 3300 Gen 4 powered and be built 100% to the plans. The “manufacturer” would be listed as “The Sonex Flying Club”. Only dual transitions flights and Biennial Flight Reviews would be permitted. I propose the aircraft be based in Oshkosh during the warmer months and somewhere a little warmer in the winter. Experienced Sonex pilot CFI’s and Sport Pilot CFI’s could be paid for their time from my understanding without an LODA as only club members would be the students. As club members students would be owners of the aircraft. This is what EAA does with their flying club as do other experimental aircraft flying clubs.

I believe what has caused a total lack of CFI’s having their own aircraft and LODA for providing transition training has been the extremely high cost of insurance for conducting flight training in their personal aircraft along with liability concerns and wear and tear on their pride and joy aircraft.

It is unfortunate that the student pilot who retarded the throttle at a critical point during climb out just after takeoff and then sued Sonex for the resulting accident ruined the transition training for the rest of us. I can certainly understand Sonex ending their transition training program as a result.

But, I believe having a non profit flying club supported by members of the Foundation and perhaps Sonex and other suppliers along with reasonable flight hour prices could alleviate the lack of available transition training.

It would also be wise to encourage all Sonex pilots to take their flight reviews and perhaps other formalized recurrent training in the Sonex Flying Club aircraft. Furthermore the club could also conduct Sonex maintenance training for Sonex owners on the club aircraft. I believe ongoing long term maintenance instruction is an area that Sonex owners crave and would be highly beneficial.

Just an idea...

Jake

[GraemeSmith]

I think you would have to go with the "majority" engine and "majority" gear type to get the benefit
The liability insurance would be "interesting".

I'm not saying it can't be done - but it might be more value to get insurers to recognize "equivalent" aircraft for transition training - then potentially more aircraft and CFI's would be available all over the country.

[WesRagle]

Hi Guys,

First of all, let me apologize to Kerry personally for my previous post. Sorry Kerry, I didn't mean to add stress to a Sunday. Obviously a clumsy post to an improper venue. I want to restate that I think Sonex LLC is the greatest thing going in light sports planes.

Having said that, there is still something missing from the overall Sonex experience and I think the "Sonex Builders and Pilots Foundation" is well positioned to supply that missing piece.

Understand that I have an uncanny ability to unintentionally upset people. If I do it again please just ignore me.

I want to repeat an assertion from a previous post.
I wrote:

for some reason the foundation never "caught on".

I'm going to assume that it's fair (and non offensive) to say that if something isn't working, changes are needed. I've learned over the years that if you want to help, if you want to have a positive impact on an organization or a process, your first obligation is to understand it. How can you help if you don't understand?

That's my long winded way of getting to my point.

It’s diluted and I’m not 100% clear what is what.

I'm still struggling with this too. I'm never sure whats what's and who is who.

Robbie, since I know you're a founding member, and your in a position of leadership, I'll ask you. Is there something I could read/reference to help me get a grip on the foundation? What are the positions within the organization, who currently fills those positions, what are there responsibilities, ...?

I think I understand that Podcasts, the discussion forum, and the foundation are all separate. Is that true, you guys are buddies but distinct and separate?

Anything to help me understand the overall dynamic would help.

Thanks for Your Time,

Wes

[Sonex Foundation]

Hi Wes

I can’t necessarily agree the idea never caught on. We have over 600 members.

You ask very fair questions.

Our website is http://www.sonexfoundation.com/Home_Page.php

The foundations goals are here - http://www.sonexfoundation.com/Foundation_Goals.html

The organization has a formal structure. Our bylaws are here http://www.sonexfoundation.com/Foundation_ByLaws.html

The bylaws are directly structured based on an extremely successful fly-in. We are legally a not for profit organization.

We are members of the EAA Type Club Coalition.

Currently the Board of Directors is Mike Singleton, Jim Hicke, Michael Farley, Michael Radtke and Chris Balthis.

Dana Baker serves as secretary and Tom Jones is our treasurer.

I am serving as interim President.

All of these positions are volunteer. No one is paid, unlike other type clubs with very large, very expensive structures and budgets. We deliberately keep this as simple and basic as possible.

The foundation has a bit over $2000 in the bank and recently donated $300 each to the podcast and this forum. (All of you DID see the yellow DONATE button on the right side of this page, correct??!) We have done this before and plan on doing so again.

We have a BBQ every year during Oshkosh, held off site, and run at minimal cost. I think we charged $10 last year. You can’t buy a brat and a soda pop for that on the show grounds.

I’d also like to make clear that while we have received the blessing of Sonex Aircraft, LLC, this organization has no formal ties with Sonex Aircraft, LLC. We try to walk the fine line of representing the members while at least getting along with the factory.

“... that Podcasts, the discussion forum, and the foundation are all separate. Is that true, you guys are buddies but distinct and separate?”

Yes. For many reasons, the podcast, this forum, and the foundation are legally separate entities and while we work together (very well, may I add!) they remain separate.

At your (excellent) suggestion I have added a suggestion box page. It is anonymous.

http://www.sonexfoundation.com/Suggestion_box.html

Our newsletter archives are at http://www.sonexfoundation.com/Newsletter_Archives.html

We also are always looking for help....

I hope this answers your questions and others. Please. Keep the conversations going and the suggestions. I have said this since day one, in person, on the podcast, and at the member meetings.

This isn’t the Robbie Culver foundation. It isn’t mine. It’s all of ours. And we spend a lot of time trying to further the cause of being able to build, fly, inspect and maintain experimental aircraft. There are definitely people in power who would prefer we could not do this.

Robbie Culver
President
Sonex Builders and Pilots Foundation